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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

3speedslow 08-26-17 08:45 PM

For the SA hubs, once you have the cog off there is a cap with 2 notches up against he hub shell. What does the tool look like to remove that cap? My friends LBS has an even darker corner where all the old tools of 40+ yrs are thrown. I want to go dig in there and see if he has some internal hubs gems.

Thanks!

PS. Still looking for a work surface to put the punch to the shifters. I want to do a good job!

PSS. The owners of that Raleigh Twenty on CL never returned any of my emails after I told them the machine was in a sad state.

SirMike1983 08-26-17 08:49 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19804537)
@SirMike1983 I'd like to ask a favor. On your 1958 Sports, does the head tube and seat tube lugs at the top tube joint look like this black one or this green one? Thanks

Attachment 576894

Attachment 576895

It's the second, sharper type on my 1958 Sports.

SirMike1983 08-26-17 08:50 PM

Cleaning and riding today: cleaning and dusting a pair of 1947 Schwinn three-speeds: a fillet brazed Continental and an electroforged New World.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nIgfOkd8w...826_135413.jpg

And off for a ride on this Raleigh Sports

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-osrty_cxC...826_182044.jpg

arty dave 08-27-17 12:27 AM

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4362/...58f82679_k.jpgIMG20170827154842 by arty dave armour, on Flickr

The AW internals are at the back, S5 in the middle, AB at the front.
For a proper clean I would lever out the ball bearing retainers (labyrinth seals I think they're called) to get the ball bearings out.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4405/...6f3f4883_c.jpgIMG20170827155936 by arty dave armour, on Flickr

Planet cages L to R - AW, S5, AB

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4354/...2bcde71a_c.jpgIMG20170826155559 by arty dave armour, on Flickr

AB innards next to an S5 in an AW shell

arty dave 08-27-17 12:38 AM

3speedslow it's called the ball ring and there are 2 kinds, one with square notches, one with half round notches - there are SA spanners made for removing the half round https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4409/...28937b3631.jpgC-spanner by arty dave armour, on Flickrhttps://farm5.staticflickr.com/4442/...91bc3d28eb.jpg0000000770763_370_0 by arty dave armour, on Flickr

...for the square notches most people use a hammer and punch. Usually this works quite well, at first I thought this was a freakish thing to do with a hub :). I use a slightly rounded cold chisel - I find it fits into the notch well, and doesn't slip out as I'm tapping. Some use a screwdriver, I think for the same reason. Watch the vids.

arty dave 08-27-17 02:17 AM

Beautiful rides as usual Sir Mike. I always like the look of whitewalls on vintage steeds.
It snowed here today which is very unusual. Yesterday it was bike-riding sunny.

BigChief 08-27-17 04:41 AM


Originally Posted by SirMike1983 (Post 19820446)
It's the second, sharper type on my 1958 Sports.

Thanks! Now we have another tool for dating Raleigh frames. Looks like this transitional shape was only used for a short period of time (by Raleigh standards) in the mid 50s.

BigChief 08-27-17 04:45 AM

@arty dave Thanks for those hub internal photos. Very useful!

gster 08-27-17 05:24 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19820787)
@arty dave Thanks for those hub internal photos. Very useful!

I second that!

JohnDThompson 08-27-17 08:38 AM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19820442)
For the SA hubs, once you have the cog off there is a cap with 2 notches up against he hub shell. What does the tool look like to remove that cap? My friends LBS has an even darker corner where all the old tools of 40+ yrs are thrown. I want to go dig in there and see if he has some internal hubs gems.

For the old-style square notches, the "official" tool is DD1145 ("C" Spanner for Right Side Ball Ring) in the illustration below. Most people use a hammer and punch:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/SA-tools.jpg

For the modern, half-round notches, you need the official tool. BikeToolsEtc carries them; just tell them what hub you have as there are a couple variations of the tool:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/sa-hub-tool.jpg

3speedslow 08-27-17 09:26 AM

Thanks everybody! Now I know what to look for.

Salubrious 08-27-17 11:19 AM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19819649)
The frames were the same. They just drilled two holes through the brackets at the downtube joints to mount the rod brake linkage to the rear wheel.

That makes sense- the frame geometry of my .35 is pretty relaxed. It uses cable operated drum brakes front and rear.

SirMike1983 08-27-17 11:42 AM


Originally Posted by arty dave (Post 19820694)
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4362/...58f82679_k.jpgIMG20170827154842 by arty dave armour, on Flickr

The AW internals are at the back, S5 in the middle, AB at the front.
For a proper clean I would lever out the ball bearing retainers (labyrinth seals I think they're called) to get the ball bearings out.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4405/...6f3f4883_c.jpgIMG20170827155936 by arty dave armour, on Flickr

Planet cages L to R - AW, S5, AB

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4354/...2bcde71a_c.jpgIMG20170826155559 by arty dave armour, on Flickr

AB innards next to an S5 in an AW shell

Good photos. This thread has become a good reference resource. My only concern with it is that it's a ton of pages to sift through just to find the one or two reference posts we're looking for. What we should really do is have a single thread or even a blog devoted to resource posts such as this that have become buried in this thread.

BigChief 08-27-17 11:55 AM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 19821374)
That makes sense- the frame geometry of my .35 is pretty relaxed. It uses cable operated drum brakes front and rear.

It does seem strange to me that Raleigh kept a line of rod brake bikes in production so long after cable operated caliper brakes became available. They even developed the dual use westrick rims for 26" models and the DL1 never lost it's rod brake system. The only reason I can think of is that there may have been enough conservative customers who demanded traditional bikes and Raleigh didn't want to rock the boat. I remember when motorcycles first started using electric starters. For a few years, they had both electric and kick. It was a while before they phased out kick starters entirely. Must be something like that.

thumpism 08-27-17 12:05 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19821438)
...I remember when motorcycles first started using electric starters. For a few years, they had both electric and kick. It was a while before they phased out kick starters entirely. Must be something like that.

As the former longtime owner of one of Yamaha's legendary problematic-electric-starter models, I certainly wished many times they'd kept up the kickstarter practice a few years longer.

SirMike1983 08-27-17 12:13 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19821438)
It does seem strange to me that Raleigh kept a line of rod brake bikes in production so long after cable operated caliper brakes became available. They even developed the dual use westrick rims for 26" models and the DL1 never lost it's rod brake system. The only reason I can think of is that there may have been enough conservative customers who demanded traditional bikes and Raleigh didn't want to rock the boat. I remember when motorcycles first started using electric starters. For a few years, they had both electric and kick. It was a while before they phased out kick starters entirely. Must be something like that.

The British cycle industry was one of the most conservative for a long time. Even for a time after WWII, there was a fairly widely-held view in Britain that steel components (including rims) were superior to aluminum ones. Many people would laugh at that viewpoint today, especially as to the rims. After WWII it also took awhile for continental (tighter) geometry to reach British road bikes.

In addition to underlying conservatism in design, you have the fact that the machines used to produce the bikes and parts have a fairly long life if the manufacturing machines are of high quality. So the machines and materials used to make the parts will have a lingering effect as well. "I've already got all this stuff to build a rod brake bike, so why not try to get a little money for it."

Then you do have some conservative segments of the cycling public as well. The somewhat older cyclists who preferred 3-speeds during the bike boom of the 1970s are an example. There are some people who just like older stuff. I knew an older college professor who commuted to work every day on a 1970s-era DL-1 up until maybe 5 years ago.

browngw 08-27-17 12:28 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Saw this great old Rudge Pathfinder ad while browsing today.

dweenk 08-27-17 12:29 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 19821438)
It does seem strange to me that Raleigh kept a line of rod brake bikes in production so long after cable operated caliper brakes became available. They even developed the dual use westrick rims for 26" models and the DL1 never lost it's rod brake system. The only reason I can think of is that there may have been enough conservative customers who demanded traditional bikes and Raleigh didn't want to rock the boat. I remember when motorcycles first started using electric starters. For a few years, they had both electric and kick. It was a while before they phased out kick starters entirely. Must be something like that.

The DL-1 was meant to last a lifetime, maybe that's why Raleigh came up with the dual purpose rim.

3speedslow 08-27-17 01:52 PM

5 Attachment(s)
Shifter disassembly

Could not come up with a hardwood block so I found a tough piece of heart pine. Drilled two holes to match the pins that have to be driven out. Didn't go all the way through the wood so the pins would stay in the wood pockets. Previously put tri-flow on both sides and let it soak.

It took all of 3 taps with the small hammer and the 1/16 punch to knock out the pins... success!

Now on to cleanup.

3speedslow 08-27-17 02:02 PM

I took this shifter apart because the case had been smashed. Now I need to figure out how to straighten the plates. @BigChief has given some good advice and will work that into my plan.

I was pleased to see that the cable housing cover is a screw in. I will need to go look for one of those for the other shifter I will work on next. That one has a busted spring. With luck I should have both shifters ready for projects.

3speedslow 08-27-17 03:16 PM

1 Attachment(s)
finally located some bronze wool in the next town at a blue water marine supply shop. Great stuff for gentle cleaning of these old bikes. First up is a dunk in some OA for awhile to see if it takes some of the rust away. The parts were more caked with oils and grime then anything else.

gster 08-27-17 04:39 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19821645)
Shifter disassembly

Could not come up with a hardwood block so I found a tough piece of heart pine. Drilled two holes to match the pins that have to be driven out. Didn't go all the way through the wood so the pins would stay in the wood pockets. Previously put tri-flow on both sides and let it soak.

It took all of 3 taps with the small hammer and the 1/16 punch to knock out the pins... success!

Now on to cleanup.

Thanks for taking the time to take the photos.
Very helpful.

3speedslow 08-27-17 04:48 PM


Originally Posted by browngw (Post 19821492)
Saw this great old Rudge Pathfinder ad while browsing today.


I have that image saved on my computer. So classy and idyllic. I would love to find one of those Rudge aero Clubman machines.

arty dave 08-27-17 05:03 PM

Any suggestions on how to clean surface rust from around the inner hub flanges and inside 'corners' of a hub shell? The spokes are making it tricky to get anything in there. I might have to de-lace the wheel? It's been laced with stainless spokes that are in good condition.

Sir Mike, yes, I have really enjoyed reading through the thread, it's such a great mixture of images and info, advice and opinions, innovations and speculations. I agree, a resource of some kind would be good for just technical stuff. Now who do we know that has an awesome blog that already has great technical content...hmmm :) Sir Mike you're quite welcome to any of my images and/or comments.

If people gave technical posts a post title, would they become more searchable or googleable?

BigChief 08-27-17 07:47 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 19821661)
I took this shifter apart because the case had been smashed. Now I need to figure out how to straighten the plates. @BigChief has given some good advice and will work that into my plan.

I was pleased to see that the cable housing cover is a screw in. I will need to go look for one of those for the other shifter I will work on next. That one has a busted spring. With luck I should have both shifters ready for projects.

Looks like you're going to have to cold forge that case back into shape. I have a 1/4"x3/4" steel bar, but I'm the kind of guy that has a lot of odd ball stuff around. I was thinking that a 1/4" thick crescent wrench would work. You would need to drive it into the case then hammer the case on a flat surface. If you don't have a rubber hammer, use heavy paper to protect the case from hammer dings. On the good side, the case steel is very soft, not springy. It will stay where you move it. Soft hits is all you need. I don't know about OA, but I'm sure evapo-rust won't hurt the colors on the face plate. This shifter looks good. I think it will turn out beautifully.
The only reason I have so much experience with these is because I bought a box full of SA stuff years ago at a auction. Must have a dozen shifters. When I didn't have a bike to work on, I fixed up shifters.


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