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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=623699)

julius rensch 04-30-19 10:19 AM

love the Brit 3 speeds
 

Originally Posted by PolishGuy (Post 10450210)
This thread gets more interesting with each new post. As Sixty Fiver said, one isn't enough so I've attached pics of the three other Raleighs in my stable. They all have SA AW three speed hubs except the Trent Sports, shown on a prior post, which has a FW four speed laced into the new 700c wheels I had made up last year. Cobrabyte, where did you get the Tufflex tires? I put some Panaracer Col de la Vie tires on the Sports in December but I don't think they ride any better that the el cheapo Kendas I had on it previously. I also agree that the R20 is a great bike for kickin' around town. The next item I'm thinking of aquiring is a Raleigh Sports with a SA S5 gear hub. I've seen a few on e-bay but it's been a while. PG.

.................................................................................................... .................................................................................................... .................................................................................................... .................................................................................................
Thanks Polish Guy..for the memories...love your bikes, I do...
My first English 3 peed Sturmey Archer was a 1952 Indian Scout....loved it. The came a new 1955 New Hudson with Twist Grip 3 speed, folowed by a new 1960 Dunault.
Currently riding a 1972 Raleigh Tourer (purchased new, for me by my wife) This is my all time fav...with just over 60,000 miles on it.
Did a have a Raleigh Superb, with Dynamo Hub...nice bike but perhaps a little to "spindly" for height and weight.
as ever, Julius in Ohio

Salubrious 04-30-19 10:50 AM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20906648)
That's what I meant, thanks. How do I position the beveled side? I was a bit confused by that. This is my first cottered crank service, so I appreciate the help.

One tip- often cotter pins often only go in correctly in one direction; if you are trying to insert the pin from the wrong side it might not go in very far. So try both sides of the crank. Be sure to work the crank arm back and forth with respect to the bottom bracket axle as you work the pin in place. It should go in easily!! Only then do you use the press to seat the pin. Never, ever use a hammer! You will mushroom the cotter pin and risk damaging the cotter pin face as well as the crank arm, bearings and axle!

Its an old and very wise tale that all mechanics know- if you have the right tools there is never a need to force anything. Cotter pins are such a great example of that- if they are stubborn coming out, you need to treat them with a good penetrating oil like Kanolabs.com Kroil and let it sit. Who knows what sort of abuse the bike might have had- a poor mechanic might have used a hammer to insert the pins and put a ridge on the cotter pin, or it may have sat in the rain for decades. You just don't know, but not knowing that is not a reason to use a hammer. Use finesse.

clubman 04-30-19 11:16 AM


Originally Posted by carfreefamily (Post 20907596)
The cotter pin should just slip in almost all the way. The press doesn't really force it into place,

In a perfect world. All it takes is the slightest burr on either the pin or the crank hole to cause the insertion to hang up. Nothing to worry about, tap it down.

Post WWII cotters were more precisely made with harder steel. Bevels were usually cut to fit a model of crank and they'd last decades. I've reused a set of cotters on a couple of old restorations for fun and they worked fine because they were hard enough to resist distortion when they were removed. Even with a hammer. :innocent:

Ged117 04-30-19 12:32 PM


Originally Posted by Salubrious (Post 20907769)
One tip- often cotter pins often only go in correctly in one direction; if you are trying to insert the pin from the wrong side it might not go in very far. So try both sides of the crank. Be sure to work the crank arm back and forth with respect to the bottom bracket axle as you work the pin in place. It should go in easily!! Only then do you use the press to seat the pin. Never, ever use a hammer! You will mushroom the cotter pin and risk damaging the cotter pin face as well as the crank arm, bearings and axle!

Its an old and very wise tale that all mechanics know- if you have the right tools there is never a need to force anything. Cotter pins are such a great example of that- if they are stubborn coming out, you need to treat them with a good penetrating oil like Kanolabs.com Kroil and let it sit. Who knows what sort of abuse the bike might have had- a poor mechanic might have used a hammer to insert the pins and put a ridge on the cotter pin, or it may have sat in the rain for decades. You just don't know, but not knowing that is not a reason to use a hammer. Use finesse.

Well said. I think I had them in wrong, and didn't ensure the cranks were situated properly. I'll try again armed with this knowledge. The cotters I pulled out were original, and I let them soak in PB for a day or so before I used the cotter press (an excellent tool; I think it took all of 3 minutes to finish the job on both sides). I was very careful however one of them had a slight bend afterward; otherwise I would have used the originals. Since Bikesmith makes excellent replacements, I feel good using those. This weekend I'm going to install the cranks, adjust the AG hub and install the wheels, brake components, and new shifter cable (I think I have to pry the shifter pawl up a bit to fit the cable, as per instructions here). Fulcrum clip, etc. Once I have the hub shifting nicely, I'm going to bolt on the Cyclo 3-speed derailer after it gets some grease and lube for the cable. Set up looks tricky for it. I'll take a bunch of photos since the paint has come out of the clean and polish process reasonably well but with lots of age marks. The front wheel needs truing as well...

carfreefamily 04-30-19 01:17 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20907956)
adjust the AG hub and install the wheels, brake components, and new shifter cable (I think I have to pry the shifter pawl up a bit to fit the cable, as per instructions here). Fulcrum clip, etc. Once I have the hub shifting nicely, I'm going to bolt on the Cyclo 3-speed derailer after it gets some grease and lube for the cable. Set up looks tricky for it. I'll take a bunch of photos since the paint has come out of the clean and polish process reasonably well but with lots of age marks. The front wheel needs truing as well...

I haven't been following the thread closely enough to know how much you are doing with your AG hub, but I can say I spent a good deal of time, after cleaning all the innards and repacking the bearings on mine, trying to get the bearings adjusted. It's the same old story that tightening the locknut seems to tighten the cone a little bit, and it's hard to gauge everything because of the dynohub. I've read that there's supposed to be a little bit of play, so I aimed for the smallest little wiggle to the hub when I rock the rim back and forth, that I could detect. It took many, many tries.

gster 04-30-19 02:23 PM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20907388)
This makes sense now. I think that is what I was missing in terms of practical theoryisms...thanks.



These were filed by the Bikesmith fellow, and match the original 1950 cotters. It inserted quite a bit, just needs a bit more before I can get the press on it. I think it should be OK as long as I align it properly.



I wish I'd have adjusted the left side only, but I wanted to get in there and take a look. I will have lots of practice at any rate with this AG, my parts bin AW, and the FW destined for the Peugeot. Thanks all, I'll update when I get back there this weekend.

The hubs can be a bit confusing the first few times but
once you've got the hang of it they start to go back together
fairly quickly.
That video is quite helpful.

3speedslow 04-30-19 04:49 PM

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4921931f4.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b3b852f1e.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...de73fb967.jpeg
Had a nice ride over to the river for a high tea.

gster 04-30-19 05:56 PM


Originally Posted by clubman (Post 20907804)
In a perfect world. All it takes is the slightest burr on either the pin or the crank hole to cause the insertion to hang up. Nothing to worry about, tap it down.

Post WWII cotters were more precisely made with harder steel. Bevels were usually cut to fit a model of crank and they'd last decades. I've reused a set of cotters on a couple of old restorations for fun and they worked fine because they were hard enough to resist distortion when they were removed. Even with a hammer. :innocent:

The cotters on the 1930 Hercules came out like butter...
And I think that they'd been in there a very long time.
Much easier than most modern bikes...
I also hit them with a hammer, both in and out.
BTW, your rim is being built and should be ready
by tomorrow.

Ged117 05-01-19 07:16 AM


Originally Posted by carfreefamily (Post 20908023)
I haven't been following the thread closely enough to know how much you are doing with your AG hub, but I can say I spent a good deal of time, after cleaning all the innards and repacking the bearings on mine, trying to get the bearings adjusted. It's the same old story that tightening the locknut seems to tighten the cone a little bit, and it's hard to gauge everything because of the dynohub. I've read that there's supposed to be a little bit of play, so I aimed for the smallest little wiggle to the hub when I rock the rim back and forth, that I could detect. It took many, many tries.

This has been my experience. The dynohub makes it a bit difficult to see where you are at (especially the innermost lock ring that adjusts the cone on the dyno side). How much resistance ought there to be when I rotate the assembly? I'm figuring that if it doesn't bind, and you can't feel too much tolerance, it should be OK. Getting to that adjustment and then tightening the locknut is tricky. The videos are very helpful.

gster 05-01-19 08:01 AM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20909034)
This has been my experience. The dynohub makes it a bit difficult to see where you are at (especially the innermost lock ring that adjusts the cone on the dyno side). How much resistance ought there to be when I rotate the assembly? I'm figuring that if it doesn't bind, and you can't feel too much tolerance, it should be OK. Getting to that adjustment and then tightening the locknut is tricky. The videos are very helpful.

Adjusting/tuning the hub off the bike is good and then a final adjust in place. Once installed, you'll find more play
due too the leverage of the wheel itself.
You should try to find a pair of these little cone wrenches...
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...635a92ee82.jpg
Once set, you lock the cone against the retaining nut and it's almost impossible to do
without at least one of these (or something similar/thin).
The hub is set when
-minimum play at hub
-little or no rotation of crank when back wheel spinning
-Spinning crank= too tight
Shift through all gears and observe.
Crank may spin briefly but should stop/settle down.
Also chain should not be tight either, it also needs a little play..
Sounds complicated but you'll get the hang of it.

Ged117 05-01-19 08:20 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20909132)
Adjusting/tuning the hub off the bike is good and then a final adjust in place. Once installed, you'll find more play
due too the leverage of the wheel itself.
You should try to find a pair of these little cone wrenches...
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...635a92ee82.jpg
Once set, you lock the cone against the retaining nut and it's almost impossible to do
without at least one of these (or something similar/thin).
The hub is set when
-minimum play at hub
-little or no rotation of crank when back wheel spinning
-Spinning crank= too tight
Shift through all gears and observe.
Crank may spin briefly but should stop/settle down.
Also chain should not be tight either, it also needs a little play..
Sounds complicated but you'll get the hang of it.

Thanks gster. I've got the Park double ended cone wrenches, which I seem to use every time I do something on a bike now. I'll dial it in this Friday night after I install the cranks. Brakes are going on too, and I'm picking up some new brake cables today for that purpose. Much easier job with the '79 Sports brakes I took off the abandoned bike.

gster 05-01-19 08:23 AM


Originally Posted by Ged117 (Post 20909170)
Thanks gster. I've got the Park double ended cone wrenches, which I seem to use every time I do something on a bike now. I'll dial it in this Friday night after I install the cranks. Brakes are going on too, and I'm picking up some new brake cables today for that purpose. Much easier job with the '79 Sports brakes I took off the abandoned bike.

Please post some photos of your progress.

BigChief 05-01-19 11:09 AM

I don't know about the Park cone wrenches, but most wrenches are too thick for SA hubs. Not a problem if you have a bench grinder or some other way to thin them down a bit, but those little SA wrenches are perfect. Especially if you have 2 of em and you use them do the final adjustment with the wheel mounted on the bike.

3speedslow 05-01-19 12:59 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20909478)
I don't know about the Park cone wrenches, but most wrenches are too thick for SA hubs. Not a problem if you have a bench grinder or some other way to thin them down a bit, but those little SA wrenches are perfect. Especially if you have 2 of em and you use them do the final adjustment with the wheel mounted on the bike.

Would anyone know the span of the jaws for those? Also the thickness of them? There is a dark corner of dead tools at the LBS I play at. Might be some buried in the pile.

julius rensch 05-01-19 02:48 PM


Originally Posted by BigChief (Post 20909478)
I don't know about the Park cone wrenches, but most wrenches are too thick for SA hubs. Not a problem if you have a bench grinder or some other way to thin them down a bit, but those little SA wrenches are perfect. Especially if you have 2 of em and you use them do the final adjustment with the wheel mounted on the bike.

Thanks for the tip Big Chief.

Julius in Ohio

nlerner 05-01-19 04:28 PM


Originally Posted by 3speedslow (Post 20909650)
Would anyone know the span of the jaws for those? Also the thickness of them? There is a dark corner of dead tools at the LBS I play at. Might be some buried in the pile.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ea67f885_b.jpg

3speedslow 05-01-19 04:35 PM

Thanks @nlerner

i know I’ve seen several that look that shape but if not SA, might still have that span. Hunting on Friday!

3speedslow 05-01-19 04:39 PM

On another note, now that the SOTS April Challenge is over I want to go ahead and switch my 451 20” rims for some aluminium ones. Sorry to find out that pickings in that ISO are slim indeed. Might have to settle for a black CR18 product. Looks like it would match up close enough to tape the rims together and transfer the spokes over though.

i will be sticking with 451

Anybody else find this to be true, scarcity and ease?

HPL 05-02-19 02:16 AM

Slipping gears, No More!
 

Originally Posted by gster (Post 20896811)
I've changed my "handle" from hater to Gster.

Hi Gster, glad you claimed your identification back!

I removed any extraneous fittings I installed, tweaked the indicator and it shifting like normal. Apparently my fabrication was causing just enough delay to keep things from adjusting to the correct position for proper shifting action. I will still attempt to cover that area again to prevent grit/dirt etc. from getting into hub; but might go with a non-flexible elbow this time and see how it works. Believe the indicator chain was hanging up on the rubber boot for a 1 second or so, and a hard elbow should avoid that problem as well as providing a better sweeping elbow for the chain. Thanks for the help everyone!

I've yet to put any photos of the Raleigh in my album, so I'll try to get it on shortly.

It's getting handmade custom leather panniers I'm making from some scrap material I have lying about. Have already removed OE grips and installed some leather strip wrapping I've made of the same leather as the panniers will be. The bike is called "The Black Widow", and will have some embellishments of black widow "hourglass" symbols on the panniers.

I did have some issues with the bar grips due to the thickness of the leather, thus I finished with external brass bar caps, vice internal plugs. Wrap is comfortable, but I might modify the end caps by removing the knurling and making smooth to the rest of the cap. Next time I'm pressing the edges of the leather strip to make it sit smoother once wrapped. Any advice folks; please let me know.

This bike is going to be used in a motorcycle "poker run" (it said all vehicles welcome!) in a month and a half so everything needs to function and look correct. Expect to ride about 40-50 miles that day, should be interesting. Support your VETS!

gster 05-02-19 06:37 AM


Originally Posted by HPL (Post 20910398)
Hi Gster, glad you claimed your identification back!

I removed any extraneous fittings I installed, tweaked the indicator and it shifting like normal. Apparently my fabrication was causing just enough delay to keep things from adjusting to the correct position for proper shifting action. I will still attempt to cover that area again to prevent grit/dirt etc. from getting into hub; but might go with a non-flexible elbow this time and see how it works. Believe the indicator chain was hanging up on the rubber boot for a 1 second or so, and a hard elbow should avoid that problem as well as providing a better sweeping elbow for the chain. Thanks for the help everyone!

I've yet to put any photos of the Raleigh in my album, so I'll try to get it on shortly.

It's getting handmade custom leather panniers I'm making from some scrap material I have lying about. Have already removed OE grips and installed some leather strip wrapping I've made of the same leather as the panniers will be. The bike is called "The Black Widow", and will have some embellishments of black widow "hourglass" symbols on the panniers.

I did have some issues with the bar grips due to the thickness of the leather, thus I finished with external brass bar caps, vice internal plugs. Wrap is comfortable, but I might modify the end caps by removing the knurling and making smooth to the rest of the cap. Next time I'm pressing the edges of the leather strip to make it sit smoother once wrapped. Any advice folks; please let me know.

This bike is going to be used in a motorcycle "poker run" (it said all vehicles welcome!) in a month and a half so everything needs to function and look correct. Expect to ride about 40-50 miles that day, should be interesting. Support your VETS!

These little indicator boots/guards are still available.
They're one of the first things to get lost over the years.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ac684993a2.jpg
One of my bikes still has one.
Not sure if they really do much.

julius rensch 05-02-19 07:07 AM


Originally Posted by HPL (Post 20910398)
Hi Gster, glad you claimed your identification back!

I removed any extraneous fittings I installed, tweaked the indicator and it shifting like normal. Apparently my fabrication was causing just enough delay to keep things from adjusting to the correct position for proper shifting action. I will still attempt to cover that area again to prevent grit/dirt etc. from getting into hub; but might go with a non-flexible elbow this time and see how it works. Believe the indicator chain was hanging up on the rubber boot for a 1 second or so, and a hard elbow should avoid that problem as well as providing a better sweeping elbow for the chain. Thanks for the help everyone!

I've yet to put any photos of the Raleigh in my album, so I'll try to get it on shortly.

It's getting handmade custom leather panniers I'm making from some scrap material I have lying about. Have already removed OE grips and installed some leather strip wrapping I've made of the same leather as the panniers will be. The bike is called "The Black Widow", and will have some embellishments of black widow "hourglass" symbols on the panniers.

I did have some issues with the bar grips due to the thickness of the leather, thus I finished with external brass bar caps, vice internal plugs. Wrap is comfortable, but I might modify the end caps by removing the knurling and making smooth to the rest of the cap. Next time I'm pressing the edges of the leather strip to make it sit smoother once wrapped. Any advice folks; please let me know.

This bike is going to be used in a motorcycle "poker run" (it said all vehicles welcome!) in a month and a half so everything needs to function and look correct. Expect to ride about 40-50 miles that day, should be interesting. Support your VETS!

Great tips..thanks Gster!

Julius in Ohio

JohnDThompson 05-02-19 10:16 AM


Originally Posted by gster (Post 20910556)
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ac684993a2.jpg
One of my bikes still has one.
Not sure if they really do much.

They help prevent the indicator chain from being damaged if you bike gets knocked over.

julius rensch 05-02-19 12:29 PM


Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 20911001)
They help prevent the indicator chain from being damaged if you bike gets knocked over.

Thanks...we used to make them ourselves out of walking cane rubber tips back in the 1950's.

gster 05-02-19 03:14 PM


Originally Posted by julius rensch (Post 20911222)
Thanks...we used to make them ourselves out of walking cane rubber tips back in the 1950's.

If only we so lucky!
We used hollowed out rat skulls....

3speedslow 05-02-19 04:05 PM

Dang,

451 ISO rims are out of stock until early June.


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