eggnoggbubble

yes, I saw that Q&A, fairly helpful, also since posting i searched youtube and found a couple of reviews, most seem fairly positive, good riding experience both loaded and unloaded.

I confess I haven't completely given up the idea of a BF, I do take your point that I can pretty much specify what I want and they'll build it for me, so I could definitely order a biased-for-speed Llama...

However, you also ask "Where will I buy it?" and that's a funny thing, although I live in Okinawa and arrived at Surly by goooogle, it turns out there is a surly dealer LBS about 3km from my house - this is freakish and completely not my usual experience (finding stuff on via the internet and then trying to figure out how to get it to okinawa....). An extra plus is that I know the guy vaguely from his previous workplace (bicycle section of an outdoor shop) and I did buy a wheel for my mundo (now sold to a friend) from him last year. So if I go the surly route I'd get to support my local LBS and also have local support for any issues or upgrades.

That, combined with the fact that a BF is likely to end up significantly more expensive (BF will likely come to $2,000 including shipping, Surly should come in around $1,500 which feels more like what I feel comfortable paying) and with a folding/travel capacity I'm not sure I need at this point (tho it would be nice to have the option, - for sure the BF would probably do pretty much everything I want of a bicycle, no getting a ride part-way with the pack rat....), means I am leaning towards the Pack Rat. I do think either bike is likely to fulfill my needs pretty well (tho I suspect a BF will continue to sit on my wish-list....dang it you got me thinking in about BF again...)

thanks for the input!