Originally Posted by tandempower

When I look at artificial technologies like desalination and industrial power usage, I see good ideas that are improved by using more established natural technologies. E.g. you can pump water uphill from the ocean and use energy to separate it from the salt, but you can also realize that water is naturally lifted and separated from the ocean/salt by evaporation. Then, when it precipitates as fresh water, it flows into rivers, lakes, aquifers, gets absorbed by living organisms, etc. So if take advantage of the natural mechanisms for utilizing sunlight to move water uphill against the force of gravity and protect it from evaporation, you are making more effective use of solar energy than if you mine up fossil fuels to make additional energy for pumping and desalinating sea water.

The problem isn't that we need more energy, more fresh water, and/or more food, but that we need to utilize the sunlight, natural water cycle, and agriculture and natural biomass more effectively/efficiently. Some industrial processes may be necessary, but the more we can minimize them, the more we can return the land and energy-pathways of the planet to their naturally-evolved state, which you should agree is the safest bet for long-term sustainability considering that the planet has been sustainable long before humans because of its natural evolutionary results.


I wouldn't say LCF is a moral imperative, but I think the car culture has led people to be too quick to choose driving when it would be better for their health, the environment, etc. to choose another mode. Obviously some people need to drive, but it's not that many compared with the number that don't really need to but do so anyway because they just don't bother to think about the effects and the alternatives.


Like I said, some people need to drive more than others. I wouldn't automatically say it's bad to walk with children, though, because walking is good for both parents and children. When my child was a baby, I walked all the time with a front/back pack carrier and he could sleep easy and comfortably because of the motion of walking, and when he woke up he could look at the surroundings. If you look at the positive aspects of LCF instead of defining LCF as a lack of access, you realize that driving-dependency is deprivation more than it is a benefit.


Fine, but can you acknowledge that having a battery charging from a solar panel to power the electric stove would be better than a gas stove? No, because you want to deny that renewable power is better than fossil-fuel, etc. We can't have political discussions here, so it would be better to move this to P&R if you want to debate about it.


Mammalian bodies generate heat. Mammals have always survived by digging holes and dens and insulating our body heat. Why do you think it's better to waste energy on heating air instead of heating the air between your skin and your clothing with your body heat? Why do you think it's harder to afford jackets and blankets than heating fuel?


It depends what you need to buy the children. Like I said, children generate their own body heat, so if you can somehow afford good warm clothing and bedding, they heat themselves. They eat but not that much until they are adolescents - and then if they eat abundant foods like grains and beans, it is not that expensive or environmentally taxing to feed them. The big challenge is training and educating them to behave reasonably and contribute positively to a sustainable economy.


I've seen coolers that are quite expensive still, because they keep food/ice frozen for weeks without renewing the ice. Such a cooler could be paired with a small ice-maker and powered with a solar panel. If the price comes down, this tech could provide sustainable refrigeration at a fraction of the energy used/wasted by less efficient insulation in coolers/refrigerators. The technology just has to be scaleable and scaled to serve the broadest-possible market/population.


You're confusing reforestation with de-urbanization. Developed/inhabited areas can be reforested by allowing trees and natural plants/soils to replenish around buildings and infrastructure. This provides cleaner air and water, more shade for comfort, and less evaporation of ground moisture so aquifers/wells/etc. conserve water better. This is as true for poor areas as richer developed areas. Natural growth is simply a form a wealth that can be allowed to grow by optimizing conditions. I've listened to you and others insist that there are areas where trees/forests don't grow naturally, but the reality is that ecosystems can evolve as more shade allows more ground moisture to be conserved and recycled within the local organisms. This may occur differently everywhere, but areas that grow lushly due to robust water supply could spread and expand as long as their natural ecological mechanisms are allowed to flourish and self-support.


Obviously people are charmed and mesmerized by industrialism and its complex of consumer products, architecture, and infrastructure. Machines are like a powerful and precise alien race that serve and protect humans so we can live like royalty. But those of us who think beyond the allure of it all are able to see how it does many forms of harm that tend to get whitewashed for various reasons. It's hard to question the overall goodness of something when the most immediate effects it produces are pleasurable and/or convenient.


Well, the most efficient insulation to install is warmer clothing and bedding, because the surface area of your body gets bigger the farther you move away from your skin. A couple square yards of warm coat is easier to 'install' than four walls and a ceiling worth of styrofoam, though if I was going to do it, I would make one room like a styrofoam cooler and just heat it with a small electric heater. There might be even more sustainable ways to heat it, but compared with heating an entire house and/or tearing off drywall to add more fiberglass, I think just adding a layer of styrofoam and then filling the gaps with spray foam in a single room would be easier and more effective. Then, the electricity for the heater might be coming from fossil fuel and/or nuclear, but the quantity of power would be so low that if every household used so little, it wouldn't be difficult to suffice with renewables such as wind and/or solar. Obviously solar generation capacity is diminished by low winter sun and short days, but with a roof full of panels and reflection off snow, you might be able to store up enough power in a battery system to keep the electric heater warm enough to keep the styrofoam-insulated room warm.

Then, put on your warm coat and go out walking and/or do other exercises to keep yourself healthy and warm with body heat so you don't have to sit in your styrofoam cooler room all day and night.