Originally Posted by Toespeas

when you try to buy a bike like your doing , you are most like going to want to change much of the parts , even if you like the test ride , once you put hours in the saddle you might start find things to change , i have been through almost 6 saddles and never kept a saddle on a bike i bought unless i was flipping it .
its always best to just buy a frame that matches the geometry that fits you , you could buy the bikes and get lucky , but if you plan on spending real hours on it you might need to get your bike fit first , so you can buy the correct frame , the bikes you are looking at are bikes nothing really special , if you like one get it maybe just do some research into the features of the bikes and compare frame stiffness , and geometry , i think that will be your biggest factor , some bikes are just not stiff enough and really cost you so much energy if you are trying to do some real sexy miles on the machine you need to make sure its not bogging you down with outdated tech philosophy , look home much bikes have changed , just the tech alone are getting rider more performance boots than ever before , some newer alu bikes are miles ahead of old carbon or steel !!!