Why to people ride opposite traffic?
#76
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Just selfish.
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#77
Senior Member
then you admit you weren't being snarky
You big ol' softie you
Even when I ride with traffic, I stop are red-light junctions. If the signal is green, I won't stop.
If I were to come against traffic, I'd still stop at a traffic signal.
Our roads are laid out in a way that four lanes turn into three lanes - just as you drive under you signal, through the junction, and pass under the next signal.
Then a fourth lane is joined. (From traffic turning right).
I'm not advocating for against-traffic riding.
Just discussing.
You big ol' softie you
Even if you want to ignore the risks at intersections where drivers aren't expecting someone coming the wrong way as they turn or cross the intersection there are a couple of other good reasons.
Outside of intersections, you are still riding against traffic, and you are putting drivers in an unusual situation because they aren't expecting to have someone on the shoulder riding towards them. Right or wrong, unusual situations are risky because you never know how someone will react.
It is also putting other riders who are following traffic laws in an unusual situation when they find another rider coming towards them against traffic. I would expect that to throw me a bit, and it forces a pass when you meet rather than giving you an opportunity to wait for a safe time to pass if you are riding in the same direction.
And of course it also increases your closing speed in the event that you are hit.
Outside of intersections, you are still riding against traffic, and you are putting drivers in an unusual situation because they aren't expecting to have someone on the shoulder riding towards them. Right or wrong, unusual situations are risky because you never know how someone will react.
It is also putting other riders who are following traffic laws in an unusual situation when they find another rider coming towards them against traffic. I would expect that to throw me a bit, and it forces a pass when you meet rather than giving you an opportunity to wait for a safe time to pass if you are riding in the same direction.
And of course it also increases your closing speed in the event that you are hit.
If I were to come against traffic, I'd still stop at a traffic signal.
Our roads are laid out in a way that four lanes turn into three lanes - just as you drive under you signal, through the junction, and pass under the next signal.
Then a fourth lane is joined. (From traffic turning right).
I'm not advocating for against-traffic riding.
Just discussing.
#78
Senior Member
I still remember when I was in school the bicycle safety class and booklet told us to ride against traffic. I know that now we say to ride with traffic but I'd bet there are a bunch of people who were taught that way and teach their kids that way as well.
#79
Senior Member
Mandela Effect.
People believe they know something, despite getting it wrong on associations and details. But because of peer pressure and intellectual laziness they never question their own assumptions.
As a kid in the 1960s schools attempted to teach rudimentary lessons in how to be a decent human being. They called it "civics." That included teaching kids to walk facing traffic. Presumably so they could jump out of the way of murderous members of their "community" barging around maliciously in their death machines. In drivers ed I don't recall any lessons teaching drivers to be decent human beings and not run over slower pedestrians and cyclists.
Anyway, as a result of those lessons about walking facing traffic, which most people wake-slept through, they halfway remember something about facing traffic and assume it applies to cyclists too.
I encountered that same misapprehension from a friend who's my age (both born in the late 1950s). I occasionally see him outside when I'm coming home from bike rides and stop to chat awhile. He mentioned that same mistake about riding facing traffic. I told him that applies only to pedestrians and, in most states, cyclists are supposed to operate like motor vehicles.
Same reason why some drivers holler "Get on the sidewalk!" at cyclists. Never mind that there are very few sidewalks in suburbs that were built to take advantage of personal transportation.
And the misunderstanding is reinforced by people riding bikes pretty much the way most people walk -- opportunistically. To minimize our risk from reckless drivers, most of us walk with little or no regard to official guidlines -- crosswalks, intersections and walk lights. It makes no sense to cross at an intersection where the walk signal coincides with signals to drivers that it's okay to turn right on red and left against traffic on yellow. So pedestrians are competing with death machines coming from different directions. Effectively the walk signal means nothing. So for our own safety we'll "jaywalk" by choosing a place in the middle of the block to cross where we have a clear view in two directions (rather than four at the typical intersection), a median strip as a safe zone, etc.
In my area most folks on bicycles wouldn't self-identify as "cyclists." The bike is just a way to get around that's a little faster than walking. But they ride their bikes the same way most of us walk -- opportunistically. They'll ride on the sidewalk for awhile wherever a sidewalk is available. They'll ride facing traffic for awhile, then dart diagonally across an intersection, dodging vehicles, and ride with traffic for awhile, then cut through a parking lot, etc.
It might seem reckless to casual observers, and sometimes it is reckless. But if you study them closely enough, it's mostly opportunistic, trying to read the patterns of vehicle traffic and riding to suit conditions.
People believe they know something, despite getting it wrong on associations and details. But because of peer pressure and intellectual laziness they never question their own assumptions.
As a kid in the 1960s schools attempted to teach rudimentary lessons in how to be a decent human being. They called it "civics." That included teaching kids to walk facing traffic. Presumably so they could jump out of the way of murderous members of their "community" barging around maliciously in their death machines. In drivers ed I don't recall any lessons teaching drivers to be decent human beings and not run over slower pedestrians and cyclists.
Anyway, as a result of those lessons about walking facing traffic, which most people wake-slept through, they halfway remember something about facing traffic and assume it applies to cyclists too.
I encountered that same misapprehension from a friend who's my age (both born in the late 1950s). I occasionally see him outside when I'm coming home from bike rides and stop to chat awhile. He mentioned that same mistake about riding facing traffic. I told him that applies only to pedestrians and, in most states, cyclists are supposed to operate like motor vehicles.
Same reason why some drivers holler "Get on the sidewalk!" at cyclists. Never mind that there are very few sidewalks in suburbs that were built to take advantage of personal transportation.
And the misunderstanding is reinforced by people riding bikes pretty much the way most people walk -- opportunistically. To minimize our risk from reckless drivers, most of us walk with little or no regard to official guidlines -- crosswalks, intersections and walk lights. It makes no sense to cross at an intersection where the walk signal coincides with signals to drivers that it's okay to turn right on red and left against traffic on yellow. So pedestrians are competing with death machines coming from different directions. Effectively the walk signal means nothing. So for our own safety we'll "jaywalk" by choosing a place in the middle of the block to cross where we have a clear view in two directions (rather than four at the typical intersection), a median strip as a safe zone, etc.
In my area most folks on bicycles wouldn't self-identify as "cyclists." The bike is just a way to get around that's a little faster than walking. But they ride their bikes the same way most of us walk -- opportunistically. They'll ride on the sidewalk for awhile wherever a sidewalk is available. They'll ride facing traffic for awhile, then dart diagonally across an intersection, dodging vehicles, and ride with traffic for awhile, then cut through a parking lot, etc.
It might seem reckless to casual observers, and sometimes it is reckless. But if you study them closely enough, it's mostly opportunistic, trying to read the patterns of vehicle traffic and riding to suit conditions.
#80
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I believe that Princess Allez was inferring that the mirror would be in the way of your hand when you went into the drops as you would when trying to reduce drag when riding fast or to lower your center of gravity for hard cornering.
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#81
Senior Member
Prices allez slay mistakenly inferred that I drop into the drops hahaha
But no, they don't get in the way.
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#82
Senior Member
Everyone's done a great job explaining why against-traffic is not ideal.
I'd like you all to address a recently developed conundrum:
People engorged with their phones and then swerving into you.
I'd like you all to address a recently developed conundrum:
People engorged with their phones and then swerving into you.
#83
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Imagine that you are approaching an intersection, say 2 lanes each way, and you're in the far left shoulder. Against traffic. No left turn lanes, no dedicated turn lights.
That driver behind you, going the same direction, hurrying to catch that light and turn left, doesn't see you. Because he's not looking way over to his left - no one does.
You don't see him, because he's behind you. Sure, you looked earlier, and you don't start across when you see someone behind preparing to turn left, but what about when you're already starting across, he's going fast and turns into you?
It's just way easier to judge and react to those "left crosses" when you're going with traffic. You can watch them approach, keep an eye on them, make a quick dodge if you have to. Against traffic, he's right there beside you before you see and react to him.
#84
On Your Left
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Just today I was riding on a 2 lane road, 1 each way, and saw 2 cyclists approaching from the opposite direction on my side. I also saw a mini van start backing out of the driveway. I'm sure the mini van never saw them and only stopped because they saw me.
#86
On Your Left
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#87
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Why [do] people ride opposite traffic?
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#88
Senior Member
Here is the one situation that worries me the most.
Imagine that you are approaching an intersection, say 2 lanes each way, and you're in the far left shoulder. Against traffic. No left turn lanes, no dedicated turn lights.
That driver behind you, going the same direction, hurrying to catch that light and turn left, doesn't see you. Because he's not looking way over to his left - no one does.
You don't see him, because he's behind you. Sure, you looked earlier, and you don't start across when you see someone behind preparing to turn left, but what about when you're already starting across, he's going fast and turns into you?
It's just way easier to judge and react to those "left crosses" when you're going with traffic. You can watch them approach, keep an eye on them, make a quick dodge if you have to. Against traffic, he's right there beside you before you see and react to him.
Imagine that you are approaching an intersection, say 2 lanes each way, and you're in the far left shoulder. Against traffic. No left turn lanes, no dedicated turn lights.
That driver behind you, going the same direction, hurrying to catch that light and turn left, doesn't see you. Because he's not looking way over to his left - no one does.
You don't see him, because he's behind you. Sure, you looked earlier, and you don't start across when you see someone behind preparing to turn left, but what about when you're already starting across, he's going fast and turns into you?
It's just way easier to judge and react to those "left crosses" when you're going with traffic. You can watch them approach, keep an eye on them, make a quick dodge if you have to. Against traffic, he's right there beside you before you see and react to him.
thank you for sharing
#89
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Most of them try to. I have taken to stopping, with my bike angled in towards the curb, and forcing them out closer to traffic. It hopefully makes the point, but if not, they are the ones putting themselves in danger, and I'm not letting them force me into because of their idiocy.
#91
Senior Member
I would never sacrifice use of the drops for a mirror.
Last edited by Princess_Allez; 09-23-20 at 10:42 AM.
#92
Senior Member
I saw a mother of two jogging against traffic with her double-wide stroller. It made absolutely zero sense to me. She's putting her children at risk so she can see a head-on collision coming her way, when there's a perfectly good sidewalk on the other side or the road
#93
GO LAKERS
It has been mentioned in this thread but NYC is a different beast. All the one-way streets encourage folks to take the shortest route and the delivery guys are trying to get where they need to go ASAP. The folks on Citibikes just DGAF or aren't really aware. Even the Amazon delivery guys with their huge boxes behind their bikes ride the wrong way. It's a mess out here!
#94
Senior Member
as mentioned above
I don't have the luxury of a private track
These days people are engrossed with mobile phones
It's not farfetched that someone haphazardly migrates out of their lane
I'm not looking to win championships - if I were,I certainly wouldn't be training on cosmopolitan/public roads
Having three children and a wife and feeling safer keeping an eye on oncoming traffic is not an issue - I can multitask
Plus,I said above - the mirror doesn't get in my way in the drops but I'm not advanced enough on a road bike to be in the drops for very long either -nor am I interested
I'm fortunate enough to own a $7,000 bike that I appreciate and enjoy within my limits and my expectations
I'm happy and fortunate to be able to take on a new hobby with a sub 8 kilogram bicycle and I recognize and appreciate that
Maybe time for you to stop being a princess and intertwine in the real world?
I know (hope) that your comment was out of impulse and that you really didn't mean it
Otherwise you have a lot of growing up to do ...
and no, I'm not some old fart going through a divorce/middle-life crisis
I'm a 38 year old that likes to believe I'm somewhat wise and realistic
I don't have the luxury of a private track
These days people are engrossed with mobile phones
It's not farfetched that someone haphazardly migrates out of their lane
I'm not looking to win championships - if I were,I certainly wouldn't be training on cosmopolitan/public roads
Having three children and a wife and feeling safer keeping an eye on oncoming traffic is not an issue - I can multitask
Plus,I said above - the mirror doesn't get in my way in the drops but I'm not advanced enough on a road bike to be in the drops for very long either -nor am I interested
I'm fortunate enough to own a $7,000 bike that I appreciate and enjoy within my limits and my expectations
I'm happy and fortunate to be able to take on a new hobby with a sub 8 kilogram bicycle and I recognize and appreciate that
Maybe time for you to stop being a princess and intertwine in the real world?
I know (hope) that your comment was out of impulse and that you really didn't mean it
Otherwise you have a lot of growing up to do ...
and no, I'm not some old fart going through a divorce/middle-life crisis
I'm a 38 year old that likes to believe I'm somewhat wise and realistic
Last edited by hedonist222; 09-23-20 at 12:31 PM.
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#95
Senior Member
I was just stating what works for me. If it doesn't bother you and you don't require using the drops, then that's good for you. For some folks, owning a $7k bike and not riding it like you stole it is all that matters to them. The same can be said of sports car owners. I also see many people that just like owning things for the sake of owning it. They don't drive it fast or take it to the track. There's a lot of variation in how people enjoy their toys.
#96
Senior Member
I will admit that i commit this cycling faux pas on my commute home from work -- otherwise, it'd be crossing the same six-lane highway twice (two left turns). So I ride 'wrong way' -- on a 10' wide shoulder - for all of less than a mile. Other than that, nope...
#97
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I was watching a guy on an ebike (not pedaling) cruising along a well marked, wide street with a bike lane that's offset ~6 feet from the curb on the wrong side of the road. He was an accident waiting to happen. Riding along the wrong side of the road, cars come from behind him, but don't necessarily see him when they turn left, and this stretch of road has a lot of turn offs for businesses in the area.
I wonder if a lot of the people we're seeing like this are because of the ebike craze. I guess it's better than bad drivers being in cars, but it's still bad.
I wonder if a lot of the people we're seeing like this are because of the ebike craze. I guess it's better than bad drivers being in cars, but it's still bad.
#99
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In California, the law states that you must ride on the right side of the roadway with traffic. But I see people riding on the wrong side of the road all the time. In fact, years ago, I hit someone on a bike going the wrong way, on the sidewalk. I was turning out of a parking lot onto a busy street and bam, knocked a girl off her bike, she was not hurt, luckily and the bike was not damaged, but I was freaked out. I was not looking for someone on a bike going the wrong way.
I think people ride so they can see the traffic coming, but not only is it more dangerous, not just because no one is looking for you, but also if you do get hit, now the speed is multiplied, by the speed of the car and how fast your riding. If your riding at 15 mph and the car is going 35 mph you get hit at the force of 50mph, where if you were riding with traffic and got hit given the same scenario, the impact would be 20mph, still, not a good experience, but much better then 50mph.
I think people ride so they can see the traffic coming, but not only is it more dangerous, not just because no one is looking for you, but also if you do get hit, now the speed is multiplied, by the speed of the car and how fast your riding. If your riding at 15 mph and the car is going 35 mph you get hit at the force of 50mph, where if you were riding with traffic and got hit given the same scenario, the impact would be 20mph, still, not a good experience, but much better then 50mph.
Now if she was an adult, then that changes the legal determination. However, fault might end up being 50/50. Sure, an adult shouldn't be riding on the sidewalk, but a driver still must exhibit care crossing sidewalks because she COULD HAVE BEEN A CHILD. But still, it still doesn't really matter; it seems you drove across the sidewalk without enough care to avoid someone using the sidewalk.
#100
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I think the answer is simple: novice riders think it's better to see oncoming traffic.
But that's counter to the CA VC AND physics. Closing speeds are changed by a differential double the rider's speed. So a rider doing 20 mph AGAINST traffic is approaching 40 mph faster than if they were going in the opposite direction. This greatly increases the risk or collision and reduces reaction times to avoid disaster.
But that's counter to the CA VC AND physics. Closing speeds are changed by a differential double the rider's speed. So a rider doing 20 mph AGAINST traffic is approaching 40 mph faster than if they were going in the opposite direction. This greatly increases the risk or collision and reduces reaction times to avoid disaster.