Racer Ex 

Started back a week or so ago after nats. I need a half step more snap and a bit more leg speed for next year; I was so close on all of the sprints and have been consistently one of the faster TS folks, figure this is one way of adding a bit more to the mix. Snow and knees cooperating I'm also going to do a lot of downhill skiing over the winter.

My best all time peak through 15s numbers came when we had a big snow year and I was doing gym work at least 2-3 times a week.

carleton

Damn, son. That's amazing!

ruudlaff

To add to the consistency point...

I'm relatively new to cycling but have a fairly decent lifting background. Previously over the past 4 years I have varied between 140-160kg squats for 3x10 reps when I was training (I've been between 75-80kg).

Took up cycling maybe 6 months ago, been making decent progress on track and naturally assumed that the cycling would have at least maintained my strength. How wrong was I. Back at the gym this week for the first time in about 4 months and I've managed to lose about 40-50kg on what I can safely rep. It's quite a staggering drop!

houleskis

I'm always surprised by how much this occurred as well. I get that road cycling (my main game until this year) and heavy lifting aren't exactly on the same side of the spectrum but the lost strength is significant.

Curious, any of the enduros have good results with 1x/week lifting in-season (whether road or track) with regards to strength maintenance? It seems to make sense why all the studies show good improvements in sprint power with in-season strength training.

carleton

Cycling will lower your max strength if you stop lifting.

The general rule of thumb that I've seen is:

- To gain strength: Lift progressively heavy 3x/week.
- To maintain what strength you've built: Lift roughly the same weight 2x/week.
- To mitigate your strength loss: Lift slowly decreasingly 1x/week.
- To rapidly lose strength: Lift 0x/week.

Also remember that cycling inhibits your recovery. So, it's possible to dip into overtraining by lifting heavy and doing a road-heavy riding program.

VanceMac

My n=1 experience jives very closely with what Carelton just posted above. My first year lifting, still a slave to the conventional wisdom that lifting was bad for enduros, I backed off once the spring came. Once/week didn't last though, as not only did I immediately start going backwards (very slightly, but that's a huge downer when you are on that novice progression of continuous improvement), but I also found that 1x is not enough to keep the rust off. The DOMS is bad when I'm donly 1x. So I pretty quickly went back to 2x/week, and was able to "maintain" strength levels.

Year two: planned to go 2x during race season. But by now, I had become convinced that lifting did not adversely affect my endurance training (caveat: by now I was no longer a road enduro, but a track enduro). So I mostly stayed 3x, but took Friday off any week that had any kind of race.

Year three: 3x for life. I didn't miss workouts even on race weeks, except for a couple "A" races.

carleton

+1

It's common for people to go down to 2x a week during the season and try to maintain the strength that they gained in the winter. The thought is that one intense race day per week gives you the stimulation that you'd get from that 3rd lift day....but I've seen that lead to decline in strength.

I think that lifting 3x one week and 2x + race day the next week may work better. That way you still get some intensity from racing.

brawlo

Because you're just starting out, it's hard to say specialize, but you can do strength work on the bike fairly easily, but it's big gear territory. Like 120"+ territory. You can maintain leg strength that way, but what you will lose is strength in all the supportive muscles like back and core and upper body if you don't do maintenance work.

But if you're going to go that route, then that kind of pigeon holes you into sprinting. That may not be your thing, so maintenance lifting is likely the best way. But if you lean towards enduro in desire and ability, then your strength will mean you're carrying too much excess weight around anyway and you should drop it to a certain extent.

ruudlaff

All good advice folks, thanks.

With experience comes wisdom!

houleskis

Interesting, what does your weekly bike volume look like with that type of schedule?

I'm currently doing 3-4/week on the bike (trainer or track due to weather) and 1-2/week in the gym. I find I have to pay a lot of attention to my weekly training structure with regards to intensity (volume isn't much of a problem as I'm too time crunched).

This is my first year on the track (2nd racing in total) but I love it. Hoping to focus on track and crits going forward and use RRs to support aspiring teammates.

carleton

Is your restriction on intensity a medical thing or you think that it will adversely affect your road riding. (I'm not asking for details if it's a medical thing).

Usually, it's Volume that gives people issues like Overtraining and/or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

houleskis

I should clarify by saying that "intensity" in this regard applies to both the bike and the gym (I think of it as a gym + bike TSS). Generally speaking, my issues is related to recovery. I find that I can't recover well from going hard on the bike multiple days in a row especially if I throw heavy gym work in the mix. Currently, my day-to-day recovery/fitness isn't at a point where I can subject myself to that much daily stress loads and be in good shape after a week or two of work. I've found that the fatigue builds relatively quickly if I don't manage my stress loads appropriately which then takes the fun out of it all (i.e. always tired, low motivation, etc).

Currently, as much as I can, I'm structuring my workout "weeks" as follows: hardest bike rides (i.e. VO2 work) or track sessions on day 1, medium (usually threshold or sweet spot) trainer rides in the middle and the gym at the end before an off day for recovery. So far this structure seems to be working pretty well. I feel like I'm making some OK progress on the track and the gym with what is relatively low bike volume (~5-6hrs/week give or take).

Edit: I also don't feel tired all the time which is nice

carleton

You are going to have to choose. You (obviously) can't lift weights significantly and keep the same road program.

You cannot serve two masters. Most road programs make no allowance at all for significant gym work and most gym programs make no allowance for significant non-gym work (cycling, running, swimming, etc...) ...And most track endurance programs don't consider that you are lifting 4x/week in the gym or riding crazy road miles.

If you decide to take track racing seriously (going to Nationals or maybe Worlds to win) you will be racing others who have decided to dedicate their training plans to racing track and race road/crits for fun or fitness but not as their main thing. This is why you generally see the same names on the podium year after year...even in age-grouped racing.

So, are you gonna race on the velodrome to get in shape or get in shape to race on the velodrome?

You don't have to answer now or in this thread, but that's the question that you will eventually ask yourself when you start losing on the velodrome at the National level. When you say to yourself, "Damn. I only lost by ______ seconds. That must have been luck or the other guy had better equipment!...", what really happened is that the other guy decided to dedicate his training to Track as opposed to being dedicated to Road.

Basically, you are trading the extra edge that it takes to win on the road/crits for that extra edge that it takes to win on the track.

I'm obviously painting in broad strokes, but that's how I've seen things go down...even on the elite world level.

carleton

I'm more familiar with sprinting than endurance racing, but the story is the same.

I've had several training partners or buddies that wanted to go all-in with sprinting...but still do the long group rides or be competitive in crits. Something has to give.

What's more is that the biggest factor in your success on the track, in the gym, on the road or in crits is your natural predisposition. Basically, your muscle fiber type and cardiovascular system. Look to recognize where you have raw, natural talent and build on that. That's the easiest route to success.

The great thing about the track is that there are events for just about every body type. From Man-1 in team sprint who drag races for less than 20s to The Hour.

I've watched strong fast-twitch guys struggle for years on the road/crit scene thinking that the could whip their bodies into shape and turn an apple into an orange. They were apples racing oranges in a race made for oranges. Dude...go race with the apples and give yourself a chance.

carleton

(sigh...I'm writing so much....)

It is technically possible to change some small percentage of your muscle fibers into Type 1 or Type 2.

It's my understanding that there are really 3 muscle fiber types:

Type I: "Slow Twitch"
Type II: "Fast Twitch"
Type IIa: That respond to training and become either Type I or Type II.

Type IIa is the small percentage that it takes to win at a high level when you are equally matched.

If you are a sprinter and you are racing other sprinters but you train your Type IIa muscles to help with endurance, you just gave away the "extra" that could have put you over the top. Same as if you are endurance racing and train your Type IIa muscles to help with anaerobic work.



Oh god I wish I would shut up...


That being said, I believe that "A rising tide lifts all boats" and a being generally stronger helps you on the road than if you were not. So, don't avoid the gym altogether...unless you are weighing your food on a food scale and climbing mountains like a mountain goat.

Velocirapture

+1 on Carleton's response(s)

Further regarding recovery specifically, make sure you are going easy enough on your light days, and getting plenty of sleep and proper nutrition.
Its what everyone says, and everyone knows it, and its still really easy to get it wrong. Being able to function on 6h of sleep is not the same as being able to recover on 6h of sleep. and the more and harder you train, the more recovery you need.

I went through a couple of years of training where i was also tired all the time and wasn't making many progress. I was doing what you are doing - adding intensity to everything due to limited time. In hind-site, i was a victim of the proverbial junk miles: too hard to serve as a recovery ride, but not hard enough to really initiate increased fitness. It fatigues you enough that your next hard ride is not hard enough either, and so on.

ruudlaff

Also regards recovery, I know it may be stating the obvious...but what you do between sessions can make a massive difference to recovery.

Diet (volume, regularity, type and timing of), sleep and rest, extra techniques like ice baths (these don't have to take long) can all make a massive difference to allowing you to maximise your recovery.

I only say this because high intensity gym work can bring with it a different type of pain and recovery that someone from a non-lifting background may be used to.

(Just realised that this is essentially the same answer as Velocirapture +1)

houleskis

100% on all of that! I have to note that I'm not adding intensity to everything. I'm being very conscious about managing intensity on a weekly basis (including recovery rides and off days) to manage fatigue (quite simply: if I can't recover in a timely manner, it means I'm going too hard). I see lots of people who don't get this and just flog themselves into the ground until they have to take an extended break due to burnout and lack of progress.

So far over the last few months, I feel like the periodization scheme I'm employing is honing in well on what works for me. The gains on and off the bike balanced with the relative lack of fatigue seem to be supporting this.

houleskis

Hah yes certainly. I've been in the gym way longer than I've been on the bike so I know (roughly) what to expect recovery wise (DOMS, CNS fatigue, etc) from lifting. I generally hit the gym on a day after a medium bike day and before a rest day/recovery ride day so that I'm reasonably fresh and to reduce the impact on following hard training rides.

carleton

A lot of you folks are in the gym pretty regularly now and I was reminded of this last week.

Plyometric (plyo) Box Jumps are a common explosive exercise these days. It's a simple and effective exercise to work on fast twitch explosiveness with benefits similar to that of using the Hang Clean. Basically, there is a box and you jump on it.



One often demonstrates progression by jumping on taller and taller boxes. THIS IS NOT NECESSARY. After a certain (safe) level, the only thing you are doing is showing how flexible your legs are and how high you can jerk your knees into your chest!! At great risk of missing the landing.



Remember what the objective is here. The objective is to train your legs to extend explosively...not to jump on to taller and taller boxes. The box simply cushions your landing so you don't have to land hard on the ground again.

The key to getting the most out of box jumps is not logging higher numbers every week. The key is giving 100% to every jump and working on recruiting 100% of your fast twitch fibers every effort. This is how you do it safely. If you are jumping on to a low box, still try 100%. If you go really high, all this means is that you don't have to jerk your knees into your chest to get your feet up on the box.

If you are ever watching the Youtube videos of people showing off, pay close attention to 2 things:

- How much they compress their knees/legs to get their feet higher.
- How much their hips actually rise off of the ground (this is the true measure of how high they are blasting up).

You'll notice that some people in the SAME VIDEO will increase the stack several inches higher, but their hips are no higher than they were in the first jump. The only thing that changes was the leg compression.


This:


Is no more effective for training than this:



Lastly: Google "box jump injuries" at your own risk. Not too graphic, but lots of scars and stitches from people thinking that higher is better

Baby Puke

Good advice, Carleton. Stop the madness!!!

DMC707

No problem here--- old knee injuries and still lugging around a few too many pounds has me still working on the 12" " baby box". ----- Plenty of zerchers and power cleans though

Rollfast

Who here is still lifting 2014?

DMC707

Tonight we're going to party like its 1999 !

Dalai

Good idea. Especially when planes will fall out of the sky due to Y2K...