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A lot of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitiv

Old 07-25-22, 09:41 PM
  #901  
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
My thin 21 year old student went into a bike shop and was served a parachute bike.
Originally Posted by big john View Post
Maybe your student should have asked for your advice?
Originally Posted by timtak View Post
I think it is a shame. It made me sad when he got it. I have tried to get in contact with him to ask about how his cycling went but I have received no reply.
No reply? By your theory, he's probably dead.
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Old 07-25-22, 10:03 PM
  #902  
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
This 13,000 bike below however, looks to me like a Frankenbike. Why is their space between the drops and the front wheel?
Because it's a larger frame. That's at least a 56. Apples to apples, dude.

Using only bent elbows in the drops is possible but one nice comfortable fast position is semi arms resting on the drops. With this bike the only way to get low is to use bent arms into the hooks. The head tube is the same apparently, so perhaps all it needs (?) is some deeper handlebars but the forks look taller.
Their bent elbows in the drops are more aerodynamic than your straight arms. You're exposing most of your arm to the wind, while their forearm is directly in line with the drops and the brifters.
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Old 07-26-22, 12:04 AM
  #903  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
No reply? By your theory, he's probably dead.
Well he is only about 29 or 30 now, so I very much hope not.

Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
Because it's a larger frame. That's at least a 56. Apples to apples, dude.
So, my perception that rider position is less low these days is perhaps therefore based on the fact that I am short.

Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
Their bent elbows in the drops are more aerodynamic than your straight arms. You're exposing most of your arm to the wind, while their forearm is directly in line with the drops and the brifters.
I am aware of that but making the drops compact makes the resting on the drops hand position less aero and the only full on aero position the hooks. But perhaps riders are thinner/fitter these days and don't need to rest on the drops any more.

Perhaps I am wrong about riding styles not having become less aero. It remains my perception but I may be wrong. If so I am sorry.

Should anyone be interested, I calculated the average drag on a peloton rider to be about 21% of that of a solo rider.



Average drag 20.49% of the solo rider.

Last edited by timtak; 07-26-22 at 12:14 AM. Reason: wrong attribution
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Old 07-26-22, 04:46 AM
  #904  
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
Thank you also for the ad hominem regarding my consumption of alcohol. It is something I am ambivalent about. Perhaps bf will encourage me to drink less. Ooh, that would be good.

Tim
It isn't an ad hominem fallacy when you have held yourself up as the model for keeping yourself healthy. You have made your bike, your condition, your diet and your riding habits a model for others to follow in order to keep from becoming obese or to lose enough weight to no longer be obese. You put this into histrionic "or die" terms, implying that not to emulate you was some sort of slow-motion suicide. As a formerly very obese person who is also a sober alcoholic, I cannot begin to tell you how absurd and offensive it is for you to lecture other people about the supposed lethality of their weight when you are an active addict of a substance that clearly is lethal when used as you described. You stated very clearly that a significant portion of your calorie intake is in the form of alcohol. If that's true, there's no way you aren't doing yourself massive amounts of damage to your own body. How dare you turn around and say to people "do as I do or die!"

I know most people who read this won't understand this, but that "or you're going to die" rhetoric is really just a form of shaming and when it comes to moderate obesity, utter bs. Moderately overweight people actually have better life expectancy than moderately underweight. I don't have any tolerance for this nonsense, and I don't find your "eccentricities" on the subject amusing in the slightest.
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Old 07-26-22, 05:39 AM
  #905  
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
I think it is a shame. It made me sad when he got it. I have tried to get in contact with him to ask about how his cycling went but I have received no reply.




If people are being advised that they can fit ˥ shaped stems to their bikes, and they re not finding any impediment from doing so (it seems to me that people don't like to ride "Frankenbikes") then all is well.




Great that you know.

I did not know. It took me a long time to work it out. It was not until I saw John Cobb's video, and he put the bars down by about 6cm that I had an epiphany, that I have been attempting to share with others because it worked for me so well. I don't think my student knew. I see loads of people riding around alone on bikes that seem to me to be made for airless group rides-- yes with that chest parachute. Frankenbikes. It seems to me that on these forums, people are recommending the bikes that the pros ride (because the pros know best, because of the prize money) when they are group bikes which are unsuitable for many (but not all) solo riders.



Maybe. I think quite a lot of people do want to get slimmer. That was my main motivation. And as I say above, warming the atmosphere was a lot less motivating than getting into a time-trial-on-a-road-bike-like position. Good news for me, though not for you, that I still want to share.




Frankenbike I think, at least may, depend on the trend. My first attempt at making a road bike for a solo rider, basing it on a time-trial bike, but with road bike bars, by pushing the bars way forward, and the seat too, worked for me, allowing me to get down to my high school weight (Now at 57 I have put some back on). To me it does not look like a monster, but a bike to which I am very grateful. A beauty bike that was designed to be different because solo road riders are different to both time-trial and group riding Pros.

This 13,000 bike below however, looks to me like a Frankenbike. Why is their space between the drops and the front wheel? Using only bent elbows in the drops is possible but one nice comfortable fast position is semi arms resting on the drops. With this bike the only way to get low is to use bent arms into the hooks. The head tube is the same apparently, so perhaps all it needs (?) is some deeper handlebars but the forks look taller.



Why all the air?

Frankenbike, apparently.

My Ride by Timothy Takemoto, on Flickr
Give it up.

Go read some wind tunnel reports.

Even if having the drops next to the front wheels were faster for all riders, and that is NOT the case, very few riders have the ability to ride that low. I will never again be able to ride that low but thankfully, it is not the fastest position for someone 191 cm tall. I suspect you are a very little man. In which case, a very low position is better aerodynamically for you......but not me.
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Old 07-26-22, 05:44 AM
  #906  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
It isn't an ad hominem fallacy
I did not meant to suggest (nor suggested afaik) that attacks on my alcoholism were a fallacy. I made it plain and said it was not good. It is true that I drink a lot, and that I would rather drink less. It is an attack on me rather than my argument ((that we'd be healthier riding non pro-like bikes, and that the bike business is getting in the way of health to an extent)) and that is how I understand the meaning of "ad hominem," attacking the human rather than the argument.

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
when you have held yourself up as the model for keeping yourself healthy. You have made your bike, your condition, your diet and your riding habits a model for others to follow in order to keep from becoming obese or to lose enough weight to no longer be obese.
I don't see myself as an ideal of health at all nor represent myself in that way. If I did I would not mention how much I drink and I don't recommend drinking a bottle of wine a day, as I do. I have told the truth about myself. I have good bits and bad bits. I hope that I can inform regarding the healthy bits ( and it seems to me that we should dump rolex bikes and get frankenbikes: bikes that are half way between road bikes and time trial bikes)

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
You put this into histrionic "or die" terms
I may well be, or rather, no you have convinced me. I am being histrionic but, I do think that this is issue is relates to life and death. That means that the over promotion of comfort bikes may be causing death but it does not mean that riding a comfort bike will kill you.

It is very very clear that something is going very wrong in our society, vis a vis obesity, and that even if we can't hear the wailing and knashing of teeth, there is a lot of death, and premature unhealth.

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
implying that not to emulate you was some sort of slow-motion suicide.
I have tried to promote John Cobb's teachings. It is clear that he is obese. He is not model. Nor I am. But he and I have good news, I like to think and for that reason, or the main reason, I tell people his good news. Please folks listen to the fatty his acolyte the alcoholic because we bring good healthy news.

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
As a formerly very obese person who is also a sober alcoholic, I cannot begin to tell you how absurd and offensive it is for you to lecture other people about the supposed lethality of their weight when you are an active addict of a substance that clearly is lethal when used as you described.
I am sorry to hear that you find what I say offensive. Perhaps people who drink too much or otherwise abuse something should not speak but, I guess that then none of us would then criticise anything. I admit that I am bad in many ways. I maintain that what I am saying is not bad (though I may be mistaken about the current effective length of head tubes) but good news for people who want to get healthy.

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
You stated very clearly that a significant portion of your calorie intake is in the form of alcohol. If that's true, there's no way you aren't doing yourself massive amounts of damage to your own body. How dare you turn around and say to people "do as I do or die!"
I do not meant to say that others should drink a lot. I did not say "do as I do or die." I did recommend that people use bikes that are more aero in terms of rider position than those ridden by groups of pros.

I understand what you are saying but I think you are wrong. I listen to the advice of fallible people. People all have their faults and yet their advice is by varying degrees, good bad and mediocre. If you find me offensive...I am sorry.... That is all I can say. Please don't listen to me if you find what I have to say offensive.

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I know most people who read this won't understand this, but that "or you're going to die" rhetoric is really just a form of shaming and when it comes to moderate obesity, utter bs. Moderately overweight people actually have better life expectancy than moderately underweight. I don't have any tolerance for this nonsense, and I don't find your "eccentricities" on the subject amusing in the slightest.
I don't know what "do or die" rhetoric I have been using, and I don't know about the life expectancy of moderately underweight and moderately overweight people but, is it this? Obesity is going to kill about 1000 people a day every day in just the USA alone. It is something that we should be thinking about, and talking about, and recommending ways to each other, some mistaken, some right, in which we can defeat it, loudly, all of us, imho.

It is possible that some health products encourage facilitate our obesity. Some health bars contain a lot of calories. Some (uses of) mobility buggies result in greater immobility. If some one smokes, drinks, or doesn't exercise should one not attempt to point these things out? I think that I will.

Addendum: Because I am an alcoholic I should shut up? Because I was, or John Cobb is, fat I or he should shut up? Because some one is fallible they should shut up? I hope we all speak and point out the life or death dangers that face us.

Tim

Last edited by timtak; 07-26-22 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 07-26-22, 06:21 AM
  #907  
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How much do you reckon Trek spend on research and design, both in terms of performance, aerodynamics and market?

I would be stunned if they didn't know what they were talking about.

I've never seen a bike on the road with the drops close to the wheel. In fact, most of the bikes I see on the road are flat bar hybrids. Why do you think that is? I'll bet it's comfort. People don't like being uncomfortable.
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Old 07-26-22, 06:26 AM
  #908  
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
I may well be, or rather, no you have convinced me. I am being histrionic but, I do think that this is issue is relates to life and death. That means that the over promotion of comfort bikes may be causing death but it does not mean that riding a comfort bike will kill you.
There's definitely an obesity problem in the West, but to think that even part of the problem is because bikes are too comfortable is bonkers. Comfortable bikes are actually part of the solution, because it encourages people to move more. It makes them work slightly harder for distance covered, but the important metric is moving time. 100w for 30 minutes is exactly the same workout at 8mph on a fat bike or 28mph on a super aero racing bike.

The real problems are related to lifestyle, usually compounded/forced by poverty. Working sedentary jobs, spending hours sitting in a car/bus/couch, eating junk food and so on.
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Old 07-26-22, 06:37 AM
  #909  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
Because it's a larger frame. That's at least a 56. Apples to apples, dude.


Their bent elbows in the drops are more aerodynamic than your straight arms. You're exposing most of your arm to the wind, while their forearm is directly in line with the drops and the brifters.

The penny hasn't dropped for the good Prof yet.

It's 100F here and I'm about to jump in my pool - cycling training done earlier - but I'll write a long response because I'm bored. So please bear with.

As most of us know, aero road bikes are designed to allow riders to race 200+km over lumpy terrain and give the best combination of aero, weight and comfort. All three are important for road racing. Road racers cannot sustain extreme aero positions for long, lumpy races over different qualities of road surface with corners etc thrown in.

Road TT bikes are designed to be more aggressively aero than the typical aero road racing bike because they are raced over shorter, straighter, flat courses.

Triathlon TT bikes have the benefit of not been subject to strict UCI rules applicable to certain aero qualities, so they can be designed with zero limitations. Still, they are designed for generally flat routes rather than very lumpy or mountainous and can be very aggressive or mildly so or anything in-between to suit the route, distance etc. and the athlete's need for extra storage.

Track bikes are different again...here we have bikes designed for smooth, flat surfaces with no corners or obstacles to navigate. They have no gears, no brakes, sprinter's bikes will have very narrow handlebars and shorter crank arms for the steep banking sections of the velodrome.

But it is the track aero bikes for the TT's held on a velodrome that the good Prof, and his buddies bikes in the photo's he has presented, is trying to copy. He is trying to turn his road bike into an extreme track TT bike.

Now, some of the more extreme bikes we have seen there are bespoke for specific athletes and their physiques, forcing the most aggressive body position as can be sustained in a velodrome environment. They can vary too according to the distance required and what the athlete can sustain. Some famous ones, like the Lotus Type 108 that Chris Boardman rode, have been superseded by others that look less aero but are, in fact, more aero because back in those days, the preference was for aerofoil shapes whereas now, designers like Kammtail which works to present a longer aerofoil shape to the air, making them faster.

It seems clear to me that some of those bikes, like Boardman's, are where he is getting his inspiration. He is then presenting this as the way forward for road racing bikes which is utter nonsense. Road racing bikes are not TT machines. Modern road bikes are faster, lighter, stronger than they have ever been before. The Prof is trying to compare them though, with older TT bikes instead of comparing them with older road racing bikes. What a plonker!

It seems that he is also looking at bikes in pictures and not taking into account the physique of the riders it is sized for; their reach, leg length etc. Hence, they appear even more extreme but make sense when the rider they are designed for gets on it. Suddenly, the bike's geometry makes sense. But Prof here is taking an aggressive-looking aero TT bike picture and trying to mimic it with his road bike. Again, what a plonker!

The Prof isn't going any faster than he was before. He just thinks he is.

He also has this weird notion that road bikes designed for comfort are a cause of obesity, leading to death. What a twit!

Adopting an extreme aero position does not equate to more kcal's being used, does not equate to a better exercise. I ride 2-5hrs, 6x a week. I'll be doing more actual aero work than he does in time terms per week when I'm training and doing that kind of work. I'll also be doing a lot of easy comfort riding and everything else in-between - none of this is extending my life or saving it.

The Prof has a major thing for obesity - he should be praising anyone who rides a bike, no matter what, or how. It is all exercise. But he seems to want to bring a bike's design into it. He should get off his bum, and go to The Netherlands, Belgium or Denmark, where the most common bikes by far are commuter, non-aero bikes. The populations of those countries are comparatively healthy compared to many. They ride their bikes a lot. Exercise. It has nothing to do with what type of bike.

Obese people are fat because they eat too much. (I'm generalising to make a point - I know this isn't true in every case). I went from athlete to obese couch-potato and back to athlete - BMI 20, then 30 and now 22.5. So I know the process. I've done the weight-loss thing. You know what bike I used to help me lose weight? An MTB e-bike. 50km per day for 3 months and a diet. Lost 21kg. I'm only 64kg so that is a 3rd! No aero bike used. No aggressive aero position. Wow, this Prof needs to lay off that Sake!

Anyway, that's me out of this Thread, it has been funny to read, always interesting to see how others think, however bizarre. Enjoy your cycling!


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Old 07-26-22, 07:00 AM
  #910  
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Anyone like me who enjoys reading wind tunnel reports and all the tests done to minimize airflow realizes any particular approach may or may not work for a given rider or the bike on test, rendering ridiculous the broad generalisations that super low bars are fast when in fact, they might not be and likely are not. Lower is fast to a point. Whether that constraint is due to impaired VO2 kinetics, lack of comfort, or aerodynamics will vary from person to person.

I find modern bikes to be much more comfortable and much, much faster than my old steel bikes.
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Old 07-26-22, 07:23 AM
  #911  
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I thought modern aero thinking was getting narrow not low
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Old 07-26-22, 07:46 AM
  #912  
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You're exactly right, Chris.
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Old 07-26-22, 08:12 AM
  #913  
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timtak

Looking at the bars relative to the front wheel makes no sense at all, as it tells you little about the riding position.

What matters (if any of this actually does matter to the average cyclist) is the drop from the saddle to the bars.

Someone with longer legs will have the saddle higher up, and thus the handlebar will also be higher for the same saddle-to-bar drop as a shorter legged person.

Regarding whether head tubes are shorter or longer today than in 80s and 90s: Well, yes and no.

Bikes sold as Race bikes apparently have similar head tube lengths (I’ll take peoples’ word on that, I never measured old ones).

However, what you also have now are more options for Road bikes other than a Road Racing geometry and fit: Endurance, All Road, and Gravel, etc…

I think what you object to is people being given the OPTION of riding something other than a Race bike. You seem to think these are turning people off of riding. You are dead wrong about that. Quite the opposite is true.

BTW, the need to use hyperbole to make a point is a good sign that your point is weak. “Parachute” is a gross overstatement of the effect of riding an Endurance bike over a racing bike for the speeds at which your average cyclist is riding in a non-competitive setting.
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Old 07-26-22, 08:25 AM
  #914  
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Aggressive road bikes are still available, but it seems from the explosion of gravel bikes that the cyclists want something a bit more relaxed.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/features...aping-cycling/

I use my road bike only when I want to prioritize speed over comfort (keeping up with groups, etc) or when I want to leave it somewhere (it's my cheapest bike), and my gravel bike for everything else. It's just the better all rounder for my fat ass.

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Old 07-26-22, 08:35 AM
  #915  
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To follow AlgarveCycling’s point, this major study from last year shows the importance of exercise generally over weight loss:

https://www.cell.com/iscience/fullte...042(21)00963-9

From the start of the summary:

We propose a weight-neutral strategy for obesity treatment on the following grounds: (1) the mortality risk associated with obesity is largely attenuated or eliminated by moderate-to-high levels of cardiorespiratory fitness (CRF) or physical activity (PA), (2) most cardiometabolic risk markers associated with obesity can be improved with exercise training independent of weight loss and by a magnitude similar to that observed with weight-loss programs,…”

Good news! Ride on.

Otto
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Old 07-26-22, 08:45 AM
  #916  
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The saddles on my modern bikes are about 9-10 inches above the top tube whereas on my steel bikes, they are only about 6 inches higher. To get the same relative drop to the bars, the modern bike looks like the stem is too high or depending upon one's perspective, the old bike is too slammed.

Keeping the forearms and back flat with elbows narrow (36-38 mm bar) and inside the thigh is going to be faster than an old Cinelli 66-42 rubbing the front wheel.
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Old 07-26-22, 09:12 AM
  #917  
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post

I don't know what "do or die" rhetoric I have been using, and I don't know about the life expectancy of moderately underweight and moderately overweight people but, is it this? Obesity is going to kill about 1000 people a day every day in just the USA alone. It is something that we should be thinking about, and talking about, and recommending ways to each other, some mistaken, some right, in which we can defeat it, loudly, all of us, imho.
I think you should stop talking about the topic of obesity because a) it really isn't logically related to anything you're discussing in terms of bike design, your convoluted nonsense attempts to make it so notwithstanding and b) every word you say about it reveals your profound ignorance on the subject. That "1000 people a day" is one of those fake statistics that gets bandied about, and when you look at the source for them, it's invariably a bunch of nonsense.
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Old 07-26-22, 09:16 AM
  #918  
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Originally Posted by AlgarveCycling View Post
The penny hasn't dropped for the good Prof yet.


Track bikes are different again...here we have bikes designed for smooth, flat surfaces with no corners or obstacles to navigate. They have no gears, no brakes, sprinter's bikes will have very narrow handlebars and shorter crank arms for the steep banking sections of the velodrome.

Where do more "urban" fixie bikes fall on the scale
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Old 07-26-22, 09:16 AM
  #919  
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Originally Posted by Herzlos View Post
There's definitely an obesity problem in the West, but to think that even part of the problem is because bikes are too comfortable is bonkers. Comfortable bikes are actually part of the solution, because it encourages people to move more. It makes them work slightly harder for distance covered, but the important metric is moving time. 100w for 30 minutes is exactly the same workout at 8mph on a fat bike or 28mph on a super aero racing bike.

The real problems are related to lifestyle, usually compounded/forced by poverty. Working sedentary jobs, spending hours sitting in a car/bus/couch, eating junk food and so on.

We also don't really have a good handle on how much of weight is determined by genetics and lecturing people about what they should or shouldn't do or eat has been a completely non-productive strategy.
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Old 07-26-22, 09:34 AM
  #920  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
We also don't really have a good handle on how much of weight is determined by genetics and lecturing people about what they should or shouldn't do or eat has been a completely non-productive strategy.
Genetics must have some impact, but given obesity is getting significantly worse over time I'm sure there must be more to it.

I agree that lecturing people about exercise and diet is a waste of time when the underlying probems are external factors - usually poverty. The best food/exercise education and motivation in the world is great, but it's of no use if you don't have the time or money to do anything about it.
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Old 07-26-22, 09:50 AM
  #921  
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Originally Posted by ofajen View Post
To follow AlgarveCycling’s point, this major study from last year shows the importance of exercise generally over weight loss:

https://www.cell.com/iscience/fullte...042(21)00963-9

From the start of the summary:

We propose a weight-neutral strategy for obesity treatment on the following grounds: (1) the mortality risk associated with obesity is largely attenuated or eliminated by moderate-to-high levels of cardiorespiratory fitness (CRF) or physical activity (PA), (2) most cardiometabolic risk markers associated with obesity can be improved with exercise training independent of weight loss and by a magnitude similar to that observed with weight-loss programs,…”

Good news! Ride on.

Otto
Thank you! There's a huge problem in the scientific/medical understanding of what is causation and what is mere correlation between general health and weight. For example, some health problems make it difficult to exercise and people suffering from them will be more sedentary than average. Because they are more sedentary, they may end up weighing more. They may also have a higher mortality rate due to the underlying condition that made them sedentary in the first place and that may have absolutely no connection with their weight whatsoever.
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Old 07-26-22, 09:51 AM
  #922  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
Where do more "urban" fixie bikes fall on the scale
I wasn't going to post in this thread again but...

Urban fixie's are generally comfortable bikes that are reasonably lightweight due to having fewer components. I had a lovely fixie when I lived in Amsterdam, I much preferred it to the more common 'Dutch' bike for getting around the city; mainly because it was faster.

A proper track bike might appear similar but it is really very different. It is made lighter, much stiffer, often has shorter cranks, higher BB, aggressive geometry to force your aero position and narrow bars. Tyres on track bikes will be inflated super-high and generally be capable of holding a higher PSI than urban tyres - because the velodrome is ultra-smooth.

Basically, an urban fixie is easy and comfortable to ride on the road whereas a true track bike is relatively uncomfortable on the road because it has been built for uncompromising stiffness on a very smooth surface with velodrome banking taken into account. It's quite a specialised machine.

That's not to say you can't go on a track and race on the cheap with a fixie or standard road bike, if allowed, on less demanding cheaper velodromes like concrete ones. The really nice synthetic or timber Olympic-level velodromes won't allow that though. My local velodrome is outdoor, pancake flat and no banking, so basically an athletics track used for cycling too. Any bike is permitted. The real velodrome further North in this country is indoor and proper track bikes only with strict shoe policies etc on the track.


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Old 07-26-22, 10:09 AM
  #923  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
Where do more "urban" fixie bikes fall on the scale
They generally don't, I imagine. The other thing track cycling doesn't have is car traffic, so you can ride head down, which would be even more suicidal in an urban setting. In the videos of "urban warrior" types, they generally aren't going for maximum aerodynamics.
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Old 07-26-22, 12:05 PM
  #924  
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I was envisioning something like this https://22bicycles.com/products/litt...-made-to-order

This is like a dream bike for me
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Old 07-26-22, 12:12 PM
  #925  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
I was envisioning something like this https://22bicycles.com/products/litt...-made-to-order

This is like a dream bike for me

I really like that!

Yes, that is a very nice urban fixie. Not the same as a track bike though for all the reasons I stated above. But lovely for city or town use. In Amsterdam, that would be stolen very quickly!
Mine was a much cheaper version of that.


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