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A lot of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitiv

Old 08-04-22, 02:48 PM
  #1176  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
I'm sure it's also true that some new riders will want to start with the bar high and eventually go to a lower set-up.
I'm finding recently I'm more comfy with the bars 1 cm closer and up to 2 cm lower.
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Old 08-04-22, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
Depends on the individual. If I was selecting a new bike I would go for the "endurance" fit, at least as far as the saddle to bar drop. I ran 100mm drop years ago but now I only want 25 to 50 at the most. Back injuries, a career of working on cars, and old age have made me less flexible.

One of my bikes has a deep drop bar so I can get low but don't have to because the bar top is high.
I am not flexible either, I rotate my pelvis. I do also have long arms, so can sit relatively upright actually if I want to.
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Old 08-04-22, 03:00 PM
  #1178  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
Hey, that takes talent! You gotta lean way over to make the hits land with any authority.
Right? Am I out of line here or is everyone sick of the whole money thing?
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Old 08-04-22, 03:09 PM
  #1179  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
Right? Am I out of line here or is everyone sick of the whole money thing?
It drips with reverse snob condescension. We don't actually ENJOY our bikes with their lighter frames, better brakes, improved ergonomics, and more useful gearing. It's just that we've been TOLD we like them, and we're too stupid to know any different.
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Old 08-04-22, 03:17 PM
  #1180  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
It drips with reverse snob condescension. We don't actually ENJOY our bikes with their lighter frames, better brakes, improved ergonomics, and more useful gearing. It's just that we've been TOLD we like them, and we're too stupid to know any different.
He said in one post that anyone who buys anything new is a chump.
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Old 08-04-22, 03:23 PM
  #1181  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
He said in one post that anyone who buys anything new is a chump.
That's certainly true of vodka.
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Old 08-04-22, 03:23 PM
  #1182  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
It drips with reverse snob condescension. We don't actually ENJOY our bikes with their lighter frames, better brakes, improved ergonomics, and more useful gearing. It's just that we've been TOLD we like them, and we're too stupid to know any different.
Ding. Nailed it.
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Old 08-04-22, 03:43 PM
  #1183  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
He said in one post that anyone who buys anything new is a chump.
I'd rather be a chump than in his shoes.
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Old 08-04-22, 03:51 PM
  #1184  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
He said in one post that anyone who buys anything new is a chump.
I don't like to pay retail, but there's nothing wrong with buying new.
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Old 08-04-22, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
He said in one post that anyone who buys anything new is a chump.
I guess I'm a chump. I prefer to buy new bottles of liquor that haven't been taste-tested by an unknown source and left in a dumpster. Today, I spent an obscene amount of money on a MTB tire because Big Rubber told me I had to.
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Old 08-04-22, 03:56 PM
  #1186  
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Originally Posted by Mojo31 View Post
I'd rather be a chump than in his shoes.
Sick burn.
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Old 08-04-22, 03:58 PM
  #1187  
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Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
I guess I'm a chump. I prefer to buy new bottles of liquor that haven't been taste-tested by an unknown source and left in a dumpster. Today, I spent an obscene amount of money on a MTB tire because Big Rubber told me I had to.
Maybe I shouldn't mention the 5 GP5000 tires I got for $100?

edit: I am going to have to pay stupid money for mtb tires, though.
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Old 08-04-22, 04:10 PM
  #1188  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
Maybe I shouldn't mention the 5 GP5000 tires I got for $100?

edit: I am going to have to pay stupid money for mtb tires, though.
I miss the days of 2 GP5000s for 72 bucks from PBK. Shoulda stocked up.

Mind you, not riding over that wicked piece of glass would have been a good idea, too.
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Old 08-04-22, 04:24 PM
  #1189  
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Time to cook dinner.
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Old 08-04-22, 04:52 PM
  #1190  
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Originally Posted by koala logs View Post
If you have to stand a lot, you need the soles on your shoes to be hard and avoid / remove insoles and avoid thick socks. The extra pressure of standing means you'll lose more energy if the space between your foot and the pedal is "squishier" and may even cause foot discomfort.
That has not been my experience. Insoles help better distribute the forces and avoid pressure points and the energy dissipated in compression of shoe insoles will almost surely be minuscule and essentially unmeasurable compared to any other factor.

Stiffness of midsole, OTOH, helps avoid stretching forces on the foot, which is what I began to feel after an hour. True stand up bikes will avoid this by using pedals that support the entire length of the foot, rendering shoe stiffness unnecessary and actually making it undesirable.

I should probably add that Iím quite happy to have had no saddle discomfort this year, so that I only stand about as much as you would expect from someone who rides almost but not entirely in a single gear.

Otto

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Old 08-04-22, 05:46 PM
  #1191  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
Are they loving endurance geometry or did they just not get a good fit and endurance geometry is more forgiving for poor fit?
I ask because I actually moved from endurance to aero geometry and didn't really notice a difference, if anything, I preferred the aero bike. I then had a fit and now am even more comfortable with a much, much larger drop.
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
I doubt its all one or the other.
Yeah, I think its some of both AND also if the rider hasn't had the opportunity to ride a bunch of different bikes, they're confused by the overwhelming variety/options.
The variety of different types/bikes, just in the 'road' segment (not even thinking to add 'gravel') alone has to be very overwhelming for someone who has little experience with what works for them (or just doesn;t know).
Given the large variety, for someone who has ridden/owned a variety of bikes, making their decisions can be hard enough. Imagine what it's like for someone who just hasn't ridden road bikes before. We see it every day here, in questions on what to buy. SO often it comes down to 'what's the best Components, or what color...
Fit ??? OMG, do we need to get that complicated ? LOL !
I seem to spend time, almost daily, on GeometryGeeks, using their comparison engine - so cool ! And there's hardly a Geo Dim which doesn't have frames in every possible combination.
So, buying a bike which might not be close to what might be suitable for a rider, at their current condition, is more than a distinct possibility. Which might mean having to do beyond normal adaptation.
But I think (educated guess) that many riders 'progressing' to a dedicated road machine, EXPECT it to 'Fit' like their current bike, a hand-me down, a mtb, a hybrid or 'comfort' bike.
So a barcoLounger with drop bars... An E-bike without the E... LOL!
Now that's all good. 'Endurance' seems able to span that setup all the way to 'almost race' fit (prolly does 'fit' race also...) with the variety of 'endurance' now available.

Like ZHVelo, I also prefer a more 'aero' position - it's what I feel most comfortable with (no BS...) Prolly due to decades of riding that way; and constant PT recovery to 'regain' range of motion from injuries... LOL!
For everyone, it's that balance of comfort/performance - whatever that balance might be.
And because 'road' bikes (not counting TT...) are the 'fastest' of bike design for roads, there comes the concept of being able to 'buy speed'. And the faster you go, the smaller the 'gains' you are able to buy.
Is 'Endurance' the most 'versatile' as relates to range of fit? I'm not sure... depends... If you have a bike with a 190 HT, and you want a greater bar drop. is it ok to do what TimTak does with his stems ???
Ride On
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Old 08-04-22, 06:09 PM
  #1192  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
It drips with reverse snob condescension. We don't actually ENJOY our bikes with their lighter frames, better brakes, improved ergonomics, and more useful gearing. It's just that we've been TOLD we like them, and we're too stupid to know any different.
Sure you might enjoy them. If you are not that strong, in that good a shape, are a very tiny person, or are a senior citizen, then you will enjoy as many gears and as light a bike as you can get, and if you are not that alert or good a rider, then those good brakes might get you out of a jam. As far as ergonomics go, road bikes have not changed in design for 120 years.

The most popular section of BikeForums is the vintage section by far, which means a lot more people agree with me that new stuff is not necessary than agree with you.
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Old 08-04-22, 06:19 PM
  #1193  
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
In my town there are dozens of cyclists riding around on high-end and new racing style bicycles, many of them wearing racing style clothes who are slow casual riders. Why did they dump thousands into their bike and clothing? For the same reason they bought luxury automobiles and SUVs, daily-wear designer clothing and other trendy and fashionable consumer goods, and that is they need it as either jewelry for their egos in a flawed attempt to give empty shallow lives meaning. It is not their fault, it is just a feature of the society they have spent their lives in, which has brainwashed them since birth to believe that anything can be bought, and even that there is no other way to get anything except with dollars, and if it is not gotten with dollars then it is not a solution worth considering.
If you aren’t someone’s sock, you’re their underwear. Either way, “empty shallow lives” pretty much sums you up. Oh, cruel irony.
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Old 08-04-22, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
The most popular section of BikeForums is the vintage section by far, which means a lot more people agree with me that new stuff is not necessary than agree with you.
Or that BikeForums is mainly frequented by Boomers wearing rose tinted glasses... 😂

I've got an old 80's road bike, and a new full carbon Di2 equipped road bike. The new bike is comfier, faster, lighter, nicer to ride and just better in every single way.

Do I need my modern bike to enjoy the ride? Not at all. Does it make riding more enjoyable for me? For sure.
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Old 08-04-22, 06:48 PM
  #1195  
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
Sure you might enjoy them. If you are not that strong, in that good a shape, are a very tiny person, or are a senior citizen, then you will enjoy as many gears and as light a bike as you can get, and if you are not that alert or good a rider, then those good brakes might get you out of a jam. As far as ergonomics go, road bikes have not changed in design for 120 years.

The most popular section of BikeForums is the vintage section by far, which means a lot more people agree with me that new stuff is not necessary than agree with you.
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Old 08-04-22, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
I guess I'm a chump. I prefer to buy new bottles of liquor that haven't been taste-tested by an unknown source and left in a dumpster. Today, I spent an obscene amount of money on a MTB tire because Big Rubber told me I had to.
I bought a handle of Tequila today for less than $30. Rather pay that than crawl into a dumpster.
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Old 08-04-22, 08:00 PM
  #1197  
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
Sure you might enjoy them. If you are not that strong, in that good a shape, are a very tiny person, or are a senior citizen, then you will enjoy as many gears and as light a bike as you can get, and if you are not that alert or good a rider, then those good brakes might get you out of a jam. As far as ergonomics go, road bikes have not changed in design for 120 years.

The most popular section of BikeForums is the vintage section by far, which means a lot more people agree with me that new stuff is not necessary than agree with you.
Oh, honey, no! That's not it at all!

Anything that makes riding easier, or more efficient, or more comfortable, or more aerodynamic, or just plain faster works for most everyone, whether they're strong or not, in shape or not, large or small, old or young. More gears enable one to climb easier, and sometimes faster, while better brakes enable faster descents - you can brake later and go faster between turns. To be sure the BASIC layout of the Safety Bicycle hasn't changed, but you might say the keyboard hasn't changed since the QWERTY keyboard was invented in 1873, but in both cases it grossly understates the ergonomic improvements. So much more is known about biomechanics than was known in in the 1880s

Regarding vintage bikes - dude. Seriously. I own, and ride, and love 5 vintage bikes. I love 'em, they're great fun. I flog them as hard as I can - no garage queens for me. But if I want to do a long ride, I'll grab one of my modern bikes. They're just better at it. So, I actually have experience - ONGOING experience - with old and new bikes, and new is better. Doesn't mean my head isn't turned by a beautiful older bike. It just means in every practical way, the new bikes are superior.
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Old 08-04-22, 08:19 PM
  #1198  
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Cmon, Gene, you know that 1982 Midget is just as fast and brakes as well as a 2022 Boxster S.
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Old 08-04-22, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Mojo31 View Post
Cmon, Gene, you know that 1982 Midget is just as fast and brakes as well as a 2022 Boxster S.
Well, you know, the design hasn't changed in 120 years.

(They stopped making Midgets in '79)
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Old 08-04-22, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
The picture of Anquetil shows him sitting well forward on his saddle, so clearly NOT using rear offset. He is achieving his aerodynamic position by bending his elbows, just like people do now. So, we're back at "TimTak posts another explicit refutation of his argument".
The general rule of setting saddle fore-aft position is the most forward position you can attain where you can still unload your hands while pedaling - the balance setup.

Comfort is important obviously and probably the most important but the hip angle is also critically important if maintaining tempo pace or more for long periods.

Link below shows the actual bikes ridden by TdF racers showing the bike fit they use for the races. Many of the saddles are shown slammed all the way forward and some of the bikes have relatively steep seat tube angle, getting the rider's hip into TT position with a more open hip angle. A more open hip angle will always result to more power simply due to our millions of years of adaptation to running. More importantly, it helps save the back from pain and avoid possible back and pelvic injuries when doing high intensity intervals on the bike.

https://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/9...de-france-2021

And if you have the right build, (more weight towards your legs) this saddle fore-aft position is actually comfortable like this bike ridden by Pogacar. The only bikes with huge setback, often with the BB shell designed with a forward offset are ridden fully upright, the vast majority of them. They often fall into the category of "comfort bikes" and many cruisers and Dutch bikes feature such BB shell offset. That's because you need to have the hip angle open. Increase the setback then you need to sit more upright and if you want to hunch forward aggressively in an aero position, then you need to seat more forward. Just to keep the hip angle open.


Here we see Warren Barguil's aero bike he sometimes use in the mountain stages as well. Notice the steep seat tube and also the zero zetback seatpost with the saddle slammed forward on the rails. The racers aren't really torturing themselves with this fit. If you have light torso, muscular legs then this is actually comfortable and fast at the same time!
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