cyccommute 

You are trying waaaay to hard to make hydraulics perfect and mechanicals a death trap. None of what you have said is true. I, like several others here, have gone for not just years but many thousands of miles without changing cables or housing. Quality plastic lined housing under tape should basically never wear out nor get contaminated. The modern reverse entry of the brake cable on road shifters should protect them from contamination. Even mountain bike cables seldom need replacement due to contamination. I’ve reused housing and cables over many years and many miles. Miles is a better measure of replacement need than time.

Bar tape usually lasts only a relatively short time anyway and the cables may or may not need replacement when the tape is replaced.

Again, you are misrepresenting hydraulics as being easy while making cables out to be overly complicated. A brake bleed is not simply pouring oil into a funnel. The process is very involved and dependent on the fluid being used. Mineral oil is a little easier than DOT fluid but neither is something that can be done in the same time as a cable replacement. It’s certainly not as simple as pouring fluid through the system. That would result in nonfunctional hydraulic brakes.

Additionally, a used cable and cable housing can be easily disposed of (or recycled). Mineral oil and DOT brake bleeds require disposal of fluids as hazardous waste.

Again, you are unfairly comparing the two systems. You generally have to take the wheel out with both brake systems. Some pads can be removed without removing the wheel but pushing back the pistons on a hydraulic system, for example, is easier to do without the rotor in place. Pushing back the piston can have its own problems as can pulling the lever without the pads in place. Contamination can interfere with pushing the piston back and pulling on the lever without a rotor in place can lock the pads, adding a bit of difficulty. Pulling the lever without the pads in place can force the piston out leading to the need of a brake bleed. Let’s also not forget that oil leaks can contaminate the pads and rotor, necessitating possible replacement of both.

Are there some issues with mechanicals? Yes but let’s be fair about the short comings of both systems.

Perhaps you should consider that you are doing something wrong. I’ve done many winter rides with cable actuated brakes. That’s during very cold rides and in freezing drizzle as well as splash from melting snow pack and the resulting refreezing. I, like many other experienced winter riders, have never experienced cable freeze.

wolfchild

You're assuming too much. What makes you think that everybody is using drop bars with bar tape ?...Personally I use riser bars with Ergon grips, if I ever need to replace the cables or housing it's a simple process, a lot simpler than brake bleeding and adding brake fluid.

That's what turned me off from hydraulics...I had problems with leaking pistons on my Shimano Deore XT caliper. Had them rebuild, worked great in nice warm weather, but started leaking during cold winter....I've been running BB7s on two different bikes for 15 years now riding in all weather conditions, I doubt that any hydraulic caliper would last that long without needing a full rebuild, fluid change or even a complete replacement of a caliper.

DangerousDanR

Perhaps you should consider that the weather patterns where you live are not conducive to icing. It doesn't happen very often here in Fargo. But we do see temperatures drop from the mid 30's to the teens during the day, and if it starts out raining, you get a nice ice coating on everything. This is the worst situation, a bike parked outside at work when temperatures drop and rain starts freezing.

I had one ice event this year. Came out of the office to find my bike coated in ice. Including the chain, to the point where the bike was not ridable until it was thawed. It had been above freezing with a gentle mist when I rode to work . Then the temperature dropped 10 degrees and the mist froze on everything.

When I commuted on a cable brake bike I had this happen and it resulted in frozen cables. Also, ice buildup on rims. That was what I had more trouble with. The cables I could normally break free. Most of the time I just get on my hydraulic brake bike and ride in whatever gear I left the bike.

These things happen mostly in the fall and spring. Once the daytime high temperature is below 20F there is not much chance of it.

Note well that my summer road bikes are all cable actuated rim brake bikes and I am considering building up a new high end road bike that will use cable actuated rim brakes. As you said, both have their issues. Both have their strong points.

The Chemist

Nope. I've had to re-wrap my bars at least three times since I got my current bar tape (stupid things that were my own fault) and I was able to reuse my bar tape just fine. Good quality bar tape is easily reusable.

cyccommute 

It’s right there in my post you quoted “…in freezing drizzle as well as splash from melting snow pack and the resulting refreezing.”. I’ve experienced freezing rain. I’ve just never experienced froze brake cables.

I’ve experienced froze drizzle on disc brakes. It has the same “oh crap!” moment as do iced rims. But in frozen drizzle situations, it is not the brakes that limit the stopping ability. Nor do rim brake limit the stopping ability. In all slippery conditions, the limiting factor is the friction between the tire and the road.

cyccommute 

+1. I’m a long time volunteer (10 years in one of them) in two different co-ops where we get far more mechanical disc brake equipped bikes than hydraulic equipped bikes but, somehow, our “disc brake” bin is filled to overflowing in both co-ops with hydraulics in various states of repair. I can go to the bins right now and pull out 15 sets of hydraulics (half of which need bleeding) and probably another 5 to 10 individual ones. Mechanicals…even the cheap ones from HelMart bikes…are rare. We get cheap bikes into the shop at a much higher rate than more expensive bikes with hydraulics, yet we have far more hydraulics in the bin.

VegasJen

I have to give it to some of you guys. You're riding in freezing conditions PLUS rain? Buncha badazzes in my book. It gets below 40 or even slightly cloudy and I'm on my elliptical.

elcruxio

[QUOTE=cyccommute;22784417]You are trying waaaay to hard to make hydraulics perfect and mechanicals a death trap. None of what you have said is true. I, like several others here, have gone for not just years but many thousands of miles without changing cables or housing. Quality plastic lined housing under tape should basically never wear out nor get contaminated. The modern reverse entry of the brake cable on road shifters should protect them from contamination. Even mountain bike cables seldom need replacement due to contamination. I’ve reused housing and cables over many years and many miles. Miles is a better measure of replacement need than time.

And yet they do get contaminated. Potentially by salt. Full length housings help, but I haven't had full length housings in all my bikes. And full length housings aren't a silver bullet either.

Why the dramatics? Why the death and destruction? That's just unnecessary hyperbole.

I think you reveal your ignorance here. Most current mineral oil brakes can either use the Shimano funnel directly or they can use their own version to the same effect.

There's multiple ways the funnel bleed but by far the best are the quick bubble bleed and the lengthier gravity bleed if you need to flush the system.

In the bubble bleed you attach the funnel, add a few ml of oil so it covers the bottom, remove plunger and pull lever a few times until bubbles stop showing up.

The gravity bleed adds to that a length of hose and a discard receptacle for the flushed oil at the caliper end. After you've put enough oil into the funnel for a complete flush and attached the hose piece you remove the plunger and open the caliper bleed port screw. After fresh oil starts coming through you close the caliper bleed port screw, take off hose, put in plunger, remove funnel and replace lever bleed port screw.

If any of the above seems complicated to you then I honestly can't help you.

Sram is a special case of suck and I won't go there. Horrible things.

I wonder how long it takes to fill a liter container if you do a flush of 25ml every two or three years...
Also, while the recommendation is two years (I think) I really don't bleed that often. With mineral oil it's like cables in california. You can go for years without, but you probably shouldn't.

None of my hydraulic brakes require you to take the wheel out when swapping pads. There's absolutely no reason to do that. A rotor in the caliper doesn't affect pushing in the pistons.

I see you've imagined all of the obscure things that can go wrong with hydraulic brakes.

Pulling the lever with no pads in place is typically not an issue. To pop a piston you need multiple full pulls of the lever. So you'd need to be a special kind of stupid to achieve that unintentionally.

Pulling on the lever with no rotor in place is a new one to me. I've never even imagined of doing that, because my brakes have hot swap pads. So I'll grant you that with budget calipers that could potentially become an issue, if you're the type of person who pulls the lever multiple times with no rotor in the caliper.

Contamination is in my experience a seriously overblown issue. Not only is it easy to correct, it doesn't happen nearly as often as people imagine it does. If you accidentally grab the rotor or pads it's a complete non issue. It's only when you get an actual spill that contaminates either one or you spray chain oil on the rotor it becomes something that requires action.

An oil leak means replacing the whole caliper and is an unfortunate mechanical failure akin to a seized bearing or broken ball inside a mechanical caliper. I'm sure it happens but it's rare enough not to be a concern.

Kinked cables, frayed housings, corroded ferrules, corroded caliper internals, contaminated corroded cables etc.

It is a strange mindset when someone thinks a thing is impossible if it hasn't happened to them.
I live on the coast.
You don't get our moisture levels.
You don't get our freeze/thaw cycles.
You don't get our precipiation amounts.
You probably don't get our road salt, which has become a bane of existence for many cyclists after they started salting the MUP's.
Frozen brake cables are relatively typical where I live. Our local forum had quite a few discussions about that when cable brakes were still common (nowadays most people ride hydraulics).
I don't know whether you ride daily. I do. Driving would be madness with our short distances. One day the bike might be soaking wet from slush and rain and the next it might completely frozen when the temperature dropped 10 degrees.

So I wonder, what is it that I should be doing differently? Are there some cable housing seals I'm not aware of? Do cables need to be treated with exotic chemicals I haven't heard of? Do I need to use some UltraFine teflon coated cables strengthened with aramid and unicorn feathers?

Since you're so well versed in bicycle mechanics, what would be your solution to combat the above conditions?

GhostRider62

I replace brake cables about every 15,000 miles and housing about every 30,000 miles. Yearly on the cables and insanely bi-yearly on the housing. Rim pads twice per year

What is insane is the price of disc pads and how quickly they wear out. My first set are shot in around 1,000 miles. The caliper mount adapters are a total kludge.

elcruxio

You should probably try some metallic pads. Some organic pads do wear pretty quickly. However metallic pads seem to last forever.

GhostRider62

Any specifics?

New bike with Sram Red HRD, I am ready to replace with the factory SRAM part but no idea if they are metallic or organic. Stopping in the rain is critical

elcruxio

It seems that the Red HRD uses the same pads as Avid Elixir and Avid Level brakes, which means that there should be an abundance of pads available from various manufacturers.

I've liked EBC gold, but those can be hard to find. Koolstop pads have been nice too.
Before you swap to metallic pads, make sure your rotors are made to support them. As far as I know all SRAM rotors can use metallic pads, but things may have changed. Some Shimano rotors are unhardened and can only use resin pads.

Hardening is the standard though so I doubt there's an issue.

Maelochs

My very limited research shows me that metallic pads are best in the rain.

(https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buy...sc-brake-pads/)
"Sintered, or metallic, brake pads are made of a mixture of metallic particles pressed together.
They are more durable than organic pads and should last longer because they can handle dirt and damp conditions a lot better.
Sintered brake pads will keep working well at higher temperatures too, although the metal content tends to transfer more heat to the brake fluid in the caliper than an organic pad.
However, sintered brake pads need a while to warm up before they start to work at their best and are also much more likely to be noisy.
Sintered disc brake pads are a good option if your riding is on the more extreme side – for example, if you’re riding a downhill bike or enduro bike – or if you frequently ride in muddy conditions."

And: "An organic pad will also wear out more quickly than other options, so you’ll need to change your pads more frequently. They don’t like dirty or wet riding much either and they can glaze over, so you might need to recondition the pads." (ibid)

Reinforcement:
"Organic brakes pads, also referred to as resin or semi-metallic brake pads, are made from a mixture of fibers held together with a resin. Some of the materials used in organic brake pads can vary from kevlar, carbon, and rubber among other things depending on the application.
"In general, organic brake pads are made from softer materials than sintered brake pads meaning they are usually quieter. In mountain bike applications, organic pads will give you more initial bite when you first grab the brake lever. One of the negatives associated with organic brake pads is that they don't manage heat as well and will fade more over long descents. Those long descents are when you need to lean on your brakes the most, and organic pads may lose some of their power when heat soaked.
"The biggest downside to organic brake pads is that they do not perform well in wet conditions. In wet and muddy conditions the brake pads can wear down even faster than normal and could also get glazed over keeping them from performing again in dry conditions." (https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/blo...red-vs-organic)

"Sintered brake pads, also referred to as metal sintered or metallic brake pads, are made from metallic particles that are fused together at a high temperature and pressure. Sintered brake pads are used in most OEM applications, not only on mountain bikes but on motorcycles and cars as well, because of their ability to perform in a variety of conditions. Sintered brake pads will continue to grab as strong as ever in wet and muddy trail conditions.
"For those riders racing, sintered brake pads may work better because of there ability to be less affected by heat build up. The heavier you are on brakes, the more heat is generated. Sintered brake pads will not fade as much as organic brake pads on those long steep descents.
"The few negatives to running sintered brake pads is that they can make some noise. Depending if they are wet or have been really hot, sintered brake pads can be loud! Lastly, because sintered pads are made from a harder material, they can be harder on rotors. For most riders, this usually isn't a problem because it takes some serious abuse to burn up brake rotors." (ibid)

GhostRider62

I'll try the Avid metal pads next. Thank you. Everywhere I read says pads are cheap but my replacements were $30 and if they only last 1,000 miles and if I ride 10,000 miles this year, that is $300 for just the front pads. Looks like the Avids are more like $20 and if they brake better in the rain and last longer, I am sold.

cyccommute 

Not nearly as often as you are representing. There are solutions to contamination as well. There are lots of sealed ferrules out there that will reduce the possibility of contamination. While corroded cables occur, not all cables corrode. I’ve worked on thousands of mistreated bicycles at my co-op. I would estimate that 1 in 100 have corroded brake cables. It happens but it doesn’t happen all that often.

Why indeed? Just answering your hyperbole. Your implication is that mechanical brakes will fail in the slightest cold weather. That’s also dramatic hyperbole.

Ah, the old “you are ignorant” saw when you are caught out bending the truth. Why would a sealed brake system have any bubbles in it? If you have to do a “bubble bleed”, there is some underlying problem that needs to be addressed. That’s not any easier than changing a cable nor changing the housing and cable. As has been pointed out to you, the cable housing doesn’t always need to be changed and lasts a whole lot longer than 2 years. To quote another poster “if any of that seems complicated to you than I honestly can’t help you.”

And there’s where your whole argument falls apart. Not all hydraulic brakes are Shimano. Not all mineral oil brakes are Shimano. The number of DOT and mineral oil hydraulic brakes are just about even on what is currently being offered on the market and DOT hydraulics outnumber mineral oil brakes. DOT bleeds are much more involved and far from simple. Mineral oil bleeds are also not as simple as you make them out to be but, I’ll agree that they are easier than DOT brake bleeds. None of them are as simple as cables…and we haven’t even addressed replacing hydraulic hose replacement.

It’s not the liter of material that is hazardous waste that needs to be disposed of. The 25 ml is hazardous waste and is not made better by collecting a whole lot of it before disposal. Small amounts are probably worse because you forget where you put the previously collected fluid years ago or it gets thrown away or, worse, flushed down some drain. It’s still a problem that cables don’ make.

Honestly I’ve never seen anything on replacing disc pads that doesn’t say to remove the wheel first. It’s just easier. If the pads can be removed from your hydraulics without removing the wheel, the same could be done with some of the mechanical discs. It would even be easier since you don’t have to push the piston back. Most all mechanical discs I’ve seen have an external socket that allows the pusher to be screwed back and away from the rotor. Many of the better ones have adjusters on both sides which makes life even simplier.

That said, I’d still take the wheel off because it would just make life easier.

Just following your lead. You’ve come up with all kinds of nightmare scenarios with cables that mostly don’t exist.

The same could be said of your overblown claims about cable systems. Exactly the same. Cable contamination issues can be easily corrected and doesn’t happen nearly as often as you imagine it does.

No oil to leak with cables. Just sayin’

Kinked hoses, blown seals, corroded pistons, rubbed through hoses, etc. If you are going to list a bunch of unlikely issues with cables, you need to consider the unlikely issues with hydraulics.

You only think you are special. I live in the mountains. Our weather is far more variable than just about any other place on the planet. We can go from 60°F (15°C) to 0°F (-17°C) in hours. How’s that for a freeze/thaw cycle? We can also go from 0°F and snow to 60°F and slush is hours. Salt is used here on the roads (didn’t used to be and our state symbol used to be a broken windshield). My bikes have gone from outside in freezing drizzle to inside to back outside to the frozen drizzle. Still no frozen brake cables.

Since you asked: Sealed ferrules, Teflon coated inner wire, and lined brake cable housing (or compressionless if you prefer). These are all things I use regularly.

terrymorse 

Do you find that the Teflon coated cables are an improvement over uncoated stainless?

I tried the Jagwire Teflon cables once, many years ago. The coating flaked off rather quickly.

Maybe Jagwire have improved them since I tried them.

cyccommute 

Yes. The teflon coating slides more easily over the teflon lining in the cable housing. Some of the more highly polished cables now available are good but compared to cheap stainless cable, teflon coated seems to work better.

Maelochs

You can shoot oil up the cable housing if you fear corrosion .... but make sure the ferrules are sealed or people will claim you risk clogging with micro-dust particles.

This whole thing is silly. You want to eat vegetables, so therefore your favorite vegetable is best. Not only is your favorite best, all the others are poisonous.

Cable rim brakes work really well, even in the wet .... not as immediate as cable discs, but most of us road most of our lives on cable rim brakes and well, it didn't turn us off from riding.

Cable discs are in my experience on par with good cable rim brakes but are immediate even in wet/muddy conditions.

Hydro discs offer a Ton of stopping power, or more than you need with moderate effort.

NONE is particularly difficult to install,set up, or maintain .... They Are all doable, and anyone who chooses to, can learn how.

The only thing to fight over here is who can fight longer over less.

I have proven in the past that I can take that battle to the brink of banning and beyond. You are all welcome to follow in my footsteps and head right over that cliff.

We live in a world with literally the best bicycles mankind has ever created, available to us. Whether it is C&V or the latest of the most modern or anything else, it is all available ... so apparently "bicycle" is not what some folks are after.

phughes

Only you can answer that. They both stop, and stop well. I personally would not upgrade unless you needed to replace a damaged braking system. Then maybe.

cyccommute 

While I agree with what you’ve said, I’d like to point out that the disc crowd…especially the hydro crowd…act like the rest of us are riding spoon brakes. I have cable disc. I have cable rim…including the dreaded cantilever (The HORROR!). I’ve had hydraulics. I haven’t found any brake that works sooooooooo much better than the others that I would give up even my dreaded cantilever brakes. I’ve ridden in mountain bikes in wet/muddy conditions in mountains even on…GASP!!!…cantilevers!!! and never had a situation where the brakes failed to work. I simply don’t feel any real difference between them.

These discussions always devolve into the hydro crowd implying (or even outright stating) that we are going to DIE if we don’t immediately adopt their brake system. It’s useless hyperbole which is what I object to. And this is coming from someone with 40+ years of mountain biking, winter riding, loaded touring, loaded mountain bike touring, and tandem experience. And I’m not shy when gravity takes over.

terrymorse 

I'd like to suggest that the disc crowd's opinion is is merely a repetition of Big Bike's marketing spin.

Big Bike's claims that "the market has decided that it wants <blank>" is complete and utter BS. The "market" eats up Big Bike's marketing spin like junk food.

Are you still riding an 11 speed, when a 12 speed is so much better? Oh, you poor unfortunate soul! Upgrade now, before it's too late!

tomato coupe

You've made that claim before, and it's total BS, as evidenced in this previous exchange:
You completely misrepresented what he posted.

Maelochs

I started out on MTB on a bike with 24 speeds and V-brakes. Now I have 24 speeds and hydro discs ..... yes, both were Triples .... will I get arrested by the trend police for not having 1X?

NO brake can stop a bike faster than the coefficient of friction between tire and road will allow. The issue with "powerful" in my experience is that the less physical power I need to use, the easier it is to modulate the brakes to maximize traction. No question in my mind that hydro discs put more pressure on the disc for less pressure from the hand. But that doesn't mean you will stop in a shorter distance. it might mean that in a panic stop if you crank hard on both levers, spurred on by adrenaline, you will lock up everything and crash ....

Or maybe not.

We can argue for a hundred more pages and nothing will change ....

The one accessory I cannot buy, is well-used time to ride.

Kapusta

I bleed my hydraulic brakes way, Way, WAY more often than I change cables or housing on my mech disc brakes.

My XT, SLX, and Magura MT7s all need some bleeding at least once a year, but sometimes it has been 2, 3, or even 4 times in a year. If I do any work on the MT7s that require a bleed (like replacing a hose or lever), I pretty much always need to do a follow up bleed.

Running full length high quality cables and housing? Many years for the cables, and practically indefinitely for the housing. My fat bike sees a ton of mud and water, and garden hose spray-downs. I just replaces the cables after 4 years. Housing is still fine.

OTOH, there are other aspects where hydros are less work and hassle.... namely pad adjustment.

wolfchild

Why do you bleed the brakes so often ?....There are people here who claim that hydraulic disc brakes are "set and forget type of brakes" and the only thing required is changing the brake pads.