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Addiction 2022.3

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Addiction 2022.3

Old 10-07-22, 07:10 PM
  #7226  
big john
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Originally Posted by seedsbelize2 View Post
I was hoping you'd weigh in. Thanks! The general consensus on the forum is that the key off draws on the battery are too great for the size of the battery. Unless it is commuted in every day, for a significant period of time, it doesn't charge fully. We take public transport whenever we can, because we hate driving in the city, so the car gets used little. maybe once a week sometimes. One poster postulated that if is let sit for a full week without being started, the offline draws would completely drain the battery, at least for being able to start it. I'm going to get a voltmeter that plugs into the cigarette lighter, in order to keep tabs on it. And maybe a portable jump start unit. Seems like it would be handy to have.
A voltmeter can tell you if the voltage drops but it can't tell you why. An ammeter can tell you how much parasitic draw is on the battery. We like to see less than 50 milliamps. If it's under that number it shouldn't go down in a week. An inductive ammeter is expensive but cheap ones are available that connect in series. When checking for a draw you have to wait for all modules to go "to sleep". This might take 15 minutes. If the draw is intermittent, good luck.

I still think your problem is just crappy batteries.
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Old 10-07-22, 07:13 PM
  #7227  
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Hey, datlas or any one else with a wheel-on trainer. Do you use a trainer tire and do they go bad on you? My Zaffiro Pros all develop a permanent lump after a couple of seasons. It’s a little S-like, sideways deviation which just gets worse and until the noise and bumping become intolerable. Suggests to me the thing is expanding circumferentially, maybe due to drag or heat or both.
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Old 10-07-22, 07:31 PM
  #7228  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
A voltmeter can tell you if the voltage drops but it can't tell you why. An ammeter can tell you how much parasitic draw is on the battery. We like to see less than 50 milliamps. If it's under that number it shouldn't go down in a week. An inductive ammeter is expensive but cheap ones are available that connect in series. When checking for a draw you have to wait for all modules to go "to sleep". This might take 15 minutes. If the draw is intermittent, good luck.

I still think your problem is just crappy batteries.
Agree - some cars will not tolerate low end or even average batteries ... not for long at least

And for some cars an AGM battery might be a better option


We have two Acura's with a fairly high parasitic draw - so a low end or even medium level battery will not be sufficient

Also have batteries in three garden tractors that will sit for extended periods - again a low end battery will not be sufficient

At one time I used Sears Diehard batteries with good results - but then Sears went under and don't know if the reintroduced Diehard batteries sold by (?) auto parts stores are the same high quality as the Sears Diehard batteries of decades ago

I believe the top level Sears DieHard batteries were manufactured by Johnson Controls - as opposed to Exide - but not sure (I believe both companies have been purchased and / or renamed )

More recently I've purchased Duracell batteries that (I believe) are manufactured by East Penn ; these batteries have provided good service in our cars including both cars that have high parasitic draw and also in the garden tractors that sit for extended periods

The last Duracell battery I installed is an AGM battery - more expensive and the slightly smaller size forced battery tray / hold down modifications - but the AGM battery has higher cold cranking power and will tolerate longer periods without use / more tolerant to drain
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Old 10-07-22, 07:38 PM
  #7229  
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Originally Posted by seedsbelize2 View Post
I was hoping you'd weigh in. Thanks! The general consensus on the forum is that the key off draws on the battery are too great for the size of the battery. Unless it is commuted in every day, for a significant period of time, it doesn't charge fully. We take public transport whenever we can, because we hate driving in the city, so the car gets used little. maybe once a week sometimes. One poster postulated that if is let sit for a full week without being started, the offline draws would completely drain the battery, at least for being able to start it. I'm going to get a voltmeter that plugs into the cigarette lighter, in order to keep tabs on it. And maybe a portable jump start unit. Seems like it would be handy to have.
We have a GOOLOO battery jumper / booster - very handy ; will start small and large engines including diesel

can also charge our phones with it - and with an adapter can charge / run laptop computer

Last edited by t2p; 10-07-22 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 10-07-22, 07:49 PM
  #7230  
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We had a customer with a new truck and he would let it sit for a month or more and then have it towed in. The service writer insisted I "fix it". General Motors said it wasn't supposed to sit for 3 weeks and recommended disconnecting the battery. Still had it towed in several more times after that.
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Old 10-07-22, 09:02 PM
  #7231  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
A voltmeter can tell you if the voltage drops but it can't tell you why. An ammeter can tell you how much parasitic draw is on the battery. We like to see less than 50 milliamps. If it's under that number it shouldn't go down in a week. An inductive ammeter is expensive but cheap ones are available that connect in series. When checking for a draw you have to wait for all modules to go "to sleep". This might take 15 minutes. If the draw is intermittent, good luck.

I still think your problem is just crappy batteries.
The Duralast battery that lasted 22 months was guaranteed for 5 years. The point of the volt meter is simply to give warning about when it's time for a new battery. To prevent it going dead in an underground parking lot late in the day. It's something we will now plan for, rather than being blind-sided again.
This is our first new car since the 91 Corolla. A lot has changed.

Last edited by seedsbelize2; 10-07-22 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 10-07-22, 09:17 PM
  #7232  
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Originally Posted by t2p View Post
We have a GOOLOO battery jumper / booster - very handy ; will start small and large engines including diesel

can also charge our phones with it - and with an adapter can charge / run laptop computer
This item costs $89 at amazon.com and doesn't ship to Mexico. On amazon.com.mx it costs $300. Typical. There are many advantages to living here, and a few disadvantages.
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Old 10-07-22, 09:58 PM
  #7233  
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Originally Posted by seedsbelize2 View Post
The Duralast battery that lasted 22 months was guaranteed for 5 years. The point of the volt meter is simply to give warning about when it's time for a new battery. To prevent it going dead in an underground parking lot late in the day. It's something we will now plan for, rather than being blind-sided again.
This is our first new car since the 91 Corolla. A lot has changed.
I don't want to argue but I don't understand how a voltmeter can give a warning. If you have a substantial draw the voltage will drop as the car sits. You might need to jump start it but it doesn't need a new battery if you left the lights on, for example. As soon as it's running it will go up to 14 volts.

If the voltage drops below about 10 volts for any reason it probably needs a jump. Batteries going dead in cars can be a real pain to diagnose. We had a $5000 computerized tester/charger from GM and it was mandatory to use and get a printout from on warranty battery claims. Even that thing isn't 100% reliable.
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Old 10-08-22, 04:47 AM
  #7234  
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Originally Posted by t2p View Post
Agree - some cars will not tolerate low end or even average batteries ... not for long at least

And for some cars an AGM battery might be a better option


We have two Acura's with a fairly high parasitic draw - so a low end or even medium level battery will not be sufficient

Also have batteries in three garden tractors that will sit for extended periods - again a low end battery will not be sufficient

At one time I used Sears Diehard batteries with good results - but then Sears went under and don't know if the reintroduced Diehard batteries sold by (?) auto parts stores are the same high quality as the Sears Diehard batteries of decades ago

I believe the top level Sears DieHard batteries were manufactured by Johnson Controls - as opposed to Exide - but not sure (I believe both companies have been purchased and / or renamed )

More recently I've purchased Duracell batteries that (I believe) are manufactured by East Penn ; these batteries have provided good service in our cars including both cars that have high parasitic draw and also in the garden tractors that sit for extended periods

The last Duracell battery I installed is an AGM battery - more expensive and the slightly smaller size forced battery tray / hold down modifications - but the AGM battery has higher cold cranking power and will tolerate longer periods without use / more tolerant to drain
Our MDX battery lasted 7 years and 135k miles despite the draw. I’ve been constantly impressed with this car. Runs as good as the day it was new. I’m likely going to replace my VW with a ‘23 when the time comes. Either that or an A4/V60 wagon
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Old 10-08-22, 05:23 AM
  #7235  
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It’s a cool 46F but dry, time to ride!

Hey MoAlpha I use an old/worn tire. The outer tread layer is starting to delaminate at sidewall margin, but still seems functional. Maybe a few lumps but not enough to motivate me to put another tire on. I have a few worn tires lying around which will be repurposed as trainer tires when current trainer one is really shot. All Conti GP4000’s.
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Old 10-08-22, 05:55 AM
  #7236  
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Old 10-08-22, 05:58 AM
  #7237  
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
Hey, datlas or any one else with a wheel-on trainer. Do you use a trainer tire and do they go bad on you? My Zaffiro Pros all develop a permanent lump after a couple of seasons. It’s a little S-like, sideways deviation which just gets worse and until the noise and bumping become intolerable. Suggests to me the thing is expanding circumferentially, maybe due to drag or heat or both.
I used one of those Vittoria trainer tires for 5+ seasons and it still ran smooth and true when I sold it. This was pre-Zwift for me, so my "mileage" was lower, but probably still several hundred miles per winter.

You don't leave the bike/trainer set-up, and the tire under roller tension, do you?
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Old 10-08-22, 06:04 AM
  #7238  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
I don't want to argue but I don't understand how a voltmeter can give a warning. If you have a substantial draw the voltage will drop as the car sits. You might need to jump start it but it doesn't need a new battery if you left the lights on, for example. As soon as it's running it will go up to 14 volts.

If the voltage drops below about 10 volts for any reason it probably needs a jump. Batteries going dead in cars can be a real pain to diagnose. We had a $5000 computerized tester/charger from GM and it was mandatory to use and get a printout from on warranty battery claims. Even that thing isn't 100% reliable.
Well clearly I don't understand these things. I will continue to do my research. It just blows my mind that 2 years of battery life is now considered normal in some circles. I have been a long time away.
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Old 10-08-22, 06:48 AM
  #7239  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I used one of those Vittoria trainer tires for 5+ seasons and it still ran smooth and true when I sold it. This was pre-Zwift for me, so my "mileage" was lower, but probably still several hundred miles per winter.

You don't leave the bike/trainer set-up, and the tire under roller tension, do you?
No, but I do leave LSS’s bike, which lives on the trainer, like that without problems.
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Old 10-08-22, 06:49 AM
  #7240  
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Originally Posted by seedsbelize2 View Post
Well clearly I don't understand these things. I will continue to do my research. It just blows my mind that 2 years of battery life is now considered normal in some circles. I have been a long time away.
Like I said there is luck involved. We would see thousands of cars, many the same model with the same battery. Some would go bad the first or second year, some would last 5 years or more.
A battery can test good and start the car normally and go bad the next day. A battery can go dead and after a jump can work fine for months until the next failure.
They can test good and be dead every morning.
The AGM batteries are the worst to diagnose. They almost always test good, even when they have to be jumped regularly.
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Old 10-08-22, 06:55 AM
  #7241  
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
No, but I do leave LSS’s bike, which lives on the trainer, like that without problems.
Huh. Weird.
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Old 10-08-22, 06:58 AM
  #7242  
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Originally Posted by seedsbelize2 View Post
Well clearly I don't understand these things. I will continue to do my research. It just blows my mind that 2 years of battery life is now considered normal in some circles. I have been a long time away.
If you don’t use the car much, you might consider an inexpensive solar trickle charger, which you can just put on and leave. Lead-acid batteries love to sit at a full charge and it will definitely lengthen their life.
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Old 10-08-22, 06:59 AM
  #7243  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Huh. Weird.
Wider tire, different brand?
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Old 10-08-22, 07:32 AM
  #7244  
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Originally Posted by seedsbelize2 View Post
The 2017 Fit, purchased in 2018, has lost its second battery. 70,000 km. I just came from Fit Forums, and it is a common problem. Seems the battery is just too small, and the 'smart charging' is dumb. Folks are disconnecting it and getting better life. Beware @datlas. How about you, Humbug? Battery issues?
This issue isn't just specific to Honda but even Nissan/Infiniti utilizes this so-called "smart" charging. The negative terminal has a battery current sensor and it basically sends a signal to the ECM to say when the alternator turns on to start charging the battery. That usually starts after driving a certain amount of miles but if you have short drives or if the vehicle sits for an extended time, the battery weakens to a state where its not strong enough to start the vehicle. One of the first mods I did on my QX80 was disconnecting the ECM signal wire from the battery current sensor. I didn't want that so-called "smart" charging just to supposedly gain 1mpg, if that. The alternator works traditionally as an alternator should without having to wait for the ECM to say when to turn on/off.
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Old 10-08-22, 07:43 AM
  #7245  
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Old 10-08-22, 07:53 AM
  #7246  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
Today I learned.
No trouble code with that wire disconnected?
A DTC does trigger for that disconnected sensor wire, a P!550. When I did this mod about 6 years ago, I installed in-line bullet connectors so when it was time for yearly emissions/inspections in NYC, I'd reconnect it. But I eventually forgot about it a year or so later with it disconnected and didn't have any issues passing emissions even with the P1550. We just moved to Sugar Land, TX this past July and had to get the truck inspected first before registration. Same thing, no problems even with the P1550; I was more afraid of all the modified and aftermarket performance bolt-ons on the truck would be an issue but all good there too.
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Old 10-08-22, 08:51 AM
  #7247  
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets View Post
Guess we haven't had a PAOTD in a while
I don'tind the ass portion of the photo....but did you have to include the nuts?
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Old 10-08-22, 10:59 AM
  #7248  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Red October, baby!
???
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Old 10-08-22, 11:22 AM
  #7249  
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Originally Posted by phrantic09 View Post
Our MDX battery lasted 7 years and 135k miles despite the draw. I’ve been constantly impressed with this car. Runs as good as the day it was new. I’m likely going to replace my VW with a ‘23 when the time comes. Either that or an A4/V60 wagon
I hit 'reply to thread' 3 times. Re-loaded the site. Same result. I can't reply without quoting. This happens on occasion.
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Old 10-08-22, 11:23 AM
  #7250  
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16 back road miles. So much more relaxing. Why did it take me so long to think of it?
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