Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Electronic vs Mechanical shifting

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Electronic vs Mechanical shifting

Old 02-02-23, 10:45 AM
  #51  
smd4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 3,486

Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2095 Post(s)
Liked 1,703 Times in 1,036 Posts
Originally Posted by jaxgtr
I think one of the biggest benefits is the set it and forget it. Unless you bang it out of alignment, once you set it up, you rarely if ever, have to adjust it.
You're not talking about mechanical shifting?
smd4 is offline  
Old 02-02-23, 11:56 AM
  #52  
Jrasero
Full Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Westchester, NY
Posts: 285

Bikes: Scott Foil RC, Specialized Aethos

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked 100 Times in 60 Posts
Originally Posted by spelger
another question related to a new bike i am looking at. for those of you that ride with electronic shifting do you think you would ever or never go back to mechanical? its an option for me that brings up the price a bit and am a bit on the fence about it. my accountant says its in my budget so am leaning toward it. in my reading up about it though it really sounds cool.
No but that's more because that's where the industry is pushing everyone. I think Shimano is disc their mechanical high end group sets anyway. So electronic shifting is heavier and more expensive but it's simply stays true indefinitely, crisper shifts, and looks cooler. I still think there is a ton of value in mechanical shifting due to it's simplicity and price. My rear Rival ETAP AXS derailleur just went bad and if the retailer had not just swapped it out for me I would be out another $270. A equivalent mechanical Shimano 105 RD-R7000 is $60 or less.

Now if you want to debate Shimano Di2 vs SRAM ETAP AXS that's more complicated but I am team SRAM ETAP AXS for what it's worth
Jrasero is offline  
Likes For Jrasero:
Old 02-02-23, 02:30 PM
  #53  
jaxgtr
Senior Member
 
jaxgtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 6,374

Bikes: Trek Domane SLR 7 eTap AXS, Trek Emonda ALR 6, Trek FX 5 Sport

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 590 Post(s)
Liked 1,235 Times in 745 Posts
Originally Posted by smd4
You're not talking about mechanical shifting?
could be, but I will stick with my electronic.
__________________
Brian | 2023 Trek Domane SLR 7 eTap AXS | 2016 Trek Emonda ALR 6 | 2022 Trek FX Sport 5
Originally Posted by AEO View Post
you should learn to embrace change, and mock it's failings every step of the way.

jaxgtr is offline  
Old 02-02-23, 02:38 PM
  #54  
jaxgtr
Senior Member
 
jaxgtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 6,374

Bikes: Trek Domane SLR 7 eTap AXS, Trek Emonda ALR 6, Trek FX 5 Sport

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 590 Post(s)
Liked 1,235 Times in 745 Posts
Originally Posted by momoman
Iím now seriously trying to decide between Ultegra and Sram for my Yoeleo R12 frame set.

https://wheretheroadforks.com/shiman...onic-shifting/

edit: corrected the link

I've had both, can't go wrong with either in the long run. However, having said that, if you do go SRAM, you will need to ensure your wheels will work with the XDR hub body and if you can get a XDR hub body for your wheels. Both my road bikes are running SRAM as I did not want to have to deal with two different ecosystems.
__________________
Brian | 2023 Trek Domane SLR 7 eTap AXS | 2016 Trek Emonda ALR 6 | 2022 Trek FX Sport 5
Originally Posted by AEO View Post
you should learn to embrace change, and mock it's failings every step of the way.

jaxgtr is offline  
Old 02-02-23, 03:03 PM
  #55  
sean.hwy
Senior Member
 
sean.hwy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: San Jose
Posts: 949

Bikes: Blur / Ibis Hakka MX

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked 252 Times in 184 Posts
Can you get electronic shifting with the paddle removed behind the brakes so you can bring the brake lever closer to the handle bar? My gf has small hands and she can't comfortably use the drops on a long decent.

A few people that I have asked if they would rather have carbon wheel set or electronic shifting they all said electronic shifting. I was really surprised.
sean.hwy is offline  
Old 02-02-23, 04:07 PM
  #56  
DaveSSS 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 7,046

Bikes: Cinelli superstar disc, two Yoeleo R12

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 973 Post(s)
Liked 509 Times in 410 Posts
Originally Posted by momoman
Thanks for the pedaling standing info. I hadnít thought about that! Also, I just double-checked the Yoeleo site and the R12 supports mechanical and electronic shifting. However, I am leaning towards electronic now. Hmmmm, what do I do with my new mechanical Ultegra R8000 groupset? Buy another frame?
I'd sell the group on ebay or the pace line forum. Wireless electronic is so much easier. I've got two R12 frames with Force. The price for the Yoeleo R12 has gone way up. What used to cost $1215 is now $1890. The base price is $1590, but unless you want flat black or hemidium color, add another $300. I got pearl white and Baltic red/black for $1215.

Yoeleobike.com
​​​​​
DaveSSS is offline  
Old 02-02-23, 05:12 PM
  #57  
jaxgtr
Senior Member
 
jaxgtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 6,374

Bikes: Trek Domane SLR 7 eTap AXS, Trek Emonda ALR 6, Trek FX 5 Sport

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 590 Post(s)
Liked 1,235 Times in 745 Posts
Originally Posted by sean.hwy
Can you get electronic shifting with the paddle removed behind the brakes so you can bring the brake lever closer to the handle bar? My gf has small hands and she can't comfortably use the drops on a long decent.

A few people that I have asked if they would rather have carbon wheel set or electronic shifting they all said electronic shifting. I was really surprised.
They shifters have adjustment bolt to bring the paddles closer to the bars. I had to bring mine in on the Domane as the bars on it have a larger reach than the bars I have on my Emonda.

https://totalwomenscycling.com/road-...rs-small-hands
__________________
Brian | 2023 Trek Domane SLR 7 eTap AXS | 2016 Trek Emonda ALR 6 | 2022 Trek FX Sport 5
Originally Posted by AEO View Post
you should learn to embrace change, and mock it's failings every step of the way.

jaxgtr is offline  
Likes For jaxgtr:
Old 02-03-23, 08:03 AM
  #58  
DaveSSS 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 7,046

Bikes: Cinelli superstar disc, two Yoeleo R12

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 973 Post(s)
Liked 509 Times in 410 Posts
Originally Posted by sean.hwy
Can you get electronic shifting with the paddle removed behind the brakes so you can bring the brake lever closer to the handle bar? My gf has small hands and she can't comfortably use the drops on a long decent.

A few people that I have asked if they would rather have carbon wheel set or electronic shifting they all said electronic shifting. I was really surprised.
SRAM shifters have lots of lever adjustment, but the shift paddle can hit the bars before full braking power occurs, if the lever adjustment is set too close. With hydraulic brakes, the pad contact adjuster should be turned CCW as far as possible so the pads are as close to the rotors as possible. Rival levers have no pad contact adjustment, so I avoided buying them. I have my levers set as close to the bars as possible. It may help to turn the brake hoods inward slightly, so the shift paddle has a little more clearance.

I'd like to see carbon bars shaped to produce more clearance.

Don't get carried away with the contact adjuster. I saw a shifter that was broken when someone turned the adjuster too hard in the CCW direction.

​​​​​
DaveSSS is offline  
Old 02-03-23, 09:35 AM
  #59  
Jrasero
Full Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Westchester, NY
Posts: 285

Bikes: Scott Foil RC, Specialized Aethos

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked 100 Times in 60 Posts
IMO if weight and a months worth of battery if not the main concern then I would go SRAM ETAP AXS since it's truly wireless which makes it easier to install and service, the app is really good, costs less, availability for parts is better, and IMO is simply designed better IE little things like a cassette simply being one piece and simply threads on the hub. Shimano is great stuff but what's the point of going electronic if your Shimano RD still has a snagable wire attached to it?
Jrasero is offline  
Old 02-03-23, 10:07 AM
  #60  
ZHVelo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Posts: 845
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 499 Post(s)
Liked 227 Times in 159 Posts
If you can afford it, it really is quite nice to have electronic. Saying that, nothing wrong with mechanical.
ZHVelo is offline  
Likes For ZHVelo:
Old 02-03-23, 12:30 PM
  #61  
momoman
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 228

Bikes: 2013 Wilier Gran Turismo, 1983 Trek 760, 80's Colnago Super, 90's De Rosa SLX, 2009 Waterford 22 Series Singlespeed, 85 Medici Pro Strada, De Rosa Alumino frameset, Dave Molten Fuso frameset, 70's beater Peugeot PX10

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked 173 Times in 79 Posts
Originally Posted by jaxgtr
I've had both, can't go wrong with either in the long run. However, having said that, if you do go SRAM, you will need to ensure your wheels will work with the XDR hub body and if you can get a XDR hub body for your wheels. Both my road bikes are running SRAM as I did not want to have to deal with two different ecosystems.
Good information! All my wheels have Shimano freehub bodies, and I have a new set of Winspace wheels with Shimano freehubs I got for my Yoeleo R12 frame. They do sell the SRAM freehub for the wheel so if i decide to go with SRAM Iíll need to buy that freehub, but then Iíll have wheels with 2 different ecosystems.
momoman is offline  
Old 02-03-23, 03:06 PM
  #62  
Calsun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 824
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 371 Post(s)
Liked 204 Times in 155 Posts
It is a subjective decision. For me it adds another point of failure and I have had no problems using standard shifting with the integrated shifter and brake levers that became common 20 years ago. It is one more thing that may fail and I really don't want to start carrying a spare $100 Di2 battery with me on my bikes.

Shimano product managers need a new gimick to sell more stuff as other than bike chains most bike components do not wear out. It also lets bike companies sell a higher level package to price their bikes higher and make more profit. Pro racers will add a new component in part because they are paid to do so, much like basketball shoes on pro atheletes.
Calsun is offline  
Old 02-03-23, 03:18 PM
  #63  
Steve B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South shore, L.I., NY
Posts: 6,278

Bikes: Flyxii FR322, Cannondale Topstone, Miyata City Liner, Specialized Chisel, Specialized Epic Evo

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2837 Post(s)
Liked 1,574 Times in 901 Posts
Originally Posted by Calsun
It is a subjective decision. For me it adds another point of failure and I have had no problems using standard shifting with the integrated shifter and brake levers that became common 20 years ago. It is one more thing that may fail and I really don't want to start carrying a spare $100 Di2 battery with me on my bikes.

Shimano product managers need a new gimick to sell more stuff as other than bike chains most bike components do not wear out. It also lets bike companies sell a higher level package to price their bikes higher and make more profit. Pro racers will add a new component in part because they are paid to do so, much like basketball shoes on pro atheletes.
I dont know anybody carries a spare Di2 battery as its generally not needed.
Steve B. is offline  
Old 02-03-23, 03:30 PM
  #64  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 3,709
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2157 Post(s)
Liked 1,852 Times in 1,170 Posts
Here is why I like electronic shifting more than mechanical

1. Due to some neuropathy, shifting mechanically is difficult and can be uncomfortable on really long rides
2. Ease of setup, set and forget
3. No cable stretch issues
4. Better aerodynamics
5. Much prefer the hood ergonomics of the SRAM AXS HRD Red over etap 11 speed hoods or the mechanical 11 speed by far
6. Right shifter to harder gear, left shifter for easier gear and both to shift the chainrings is very intuitive to me
7. Regular cage SRAM AXS on my bike can shift 36T whereas the extended cage can shift 39T, but the earlier Generation, it is much smaller rear cog.
8. On a TT bike, is there any argument which is better?

What I don't like is the inefficient AXS chain.
GhostRider62 is offline  
Old 02-03-23, 04:32 PM
  #65  
jaxgtr
Senior Member
 
jaxgtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 6,374

Bikes: Trek Domane SLR 7 eTap AXS, Trek Emonda ALR 6, Trek FX 5 Sport

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 590 Post(s)
Liked 1,235 Times in 745 Posts
Originally Posted by momoman
Good information! All my wheels have Shimano freehub bodies, and I have a new set of Winspace wheels with Shimano freehubs I got for my Yoeleo R12 frame. They do sell the SRAM freehub for the wheel so if i decide to go with SRAM Iíll need to buy that freehub, but then Iíll have wheels with 2 different ecosystems.
If the freehub bodies are simple to change out like mine are, very easy to move wheels back and forth if needed.
__________________
Brian | 2023 Trek Domane SLR 7 eTap AXS | 2016 Trek Emonda ALR 6 | 2022 Trek FX Sport 5
Originally Posted by AEO View Post
you should learn to embrace change, and mock it's failings every step of the way.

jaxgtr is offline  
Old 02-03-23, 06:56 PM
  #66  
Steve B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South shore, L.I., NY
Posts: 6,278

Bikes: Flyxii FR322, Cannondale Topstone, Miyata City Liner, Specialized Chisel, Specialized Epic Evo

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2837 Post(s)
Liked 1,574 Times in 901 Posts
Originally Posted by GhostRider62
Here is why I like electronic shifting more than mechanical

1. Due to some neuropathy, shifting mechanically is difficult and can be uncomfortable on really long rides
2. Ease of setup, set and forget
3. No cable stretch issues
4. Better aerodynamics
5. Much prefer the hood ergonomics of the SRAM AXS HRD Red over etap 11 speed hoods or the mechanical 11 speed by far
6. Right shifter to harder gear, left shifter for easier gear and both to shift the chainrings is very intuitive to me
7. Regular cage SRAM AXS on my bike can shift 36T whereas the extended cage can shift 39T, but the earlier Generation, it is much smaller rear cog.
8. On a TT bike, is there any argument which is better?

What I don't like is the inefficient AXS chain.
I have very weak thumbs from work related injuries, have a hard time with thumb shifters on mechanical mt. bike shifters. Electronic resolves that.
Steve B. is offline  
Old 02-03-23, 11:50 PM
  #67  
momoman
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 228

Bikes: 2013 Wilier Gran Turismo, 1983 Trek 760, 80's Colnago Super, 90's De Rosa SLX, 2009 Waterford 22 Series Singlespeed, 85 Medici Pro Strada, De Rosa Alumino frameset, Dave Molten Fuso frameset, 70's beater Peugeot PX10

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked 173 Times in 79 Posts
If youíre a techno freak or a data junkie, Shimano Di2 will display all sorts of data on your Garmin. You can see your Di2 battery life, gear combo, chain position.


momoman is offline  
Old 02-04-23, 02:25 AM
  #68  
Amt0571
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Catalonia
Posts: 926

Bikes: Canyon Grand Canyon AL SL 8.0, Triban RC520 Gravel Ltd, Btwin Ultra 520 AF GF, Dahon Mu P27, Triban Road 7, Benotto 850

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Liked 198 Times in 125 Posts
I don't want electronics or anything that I can't fix on the go and service at home for cheap.

I only suffered a couple of broken cables in my life, and it's a 10 minute job to replace them providing you don't have internal routing, which is the reason why I don't like internal routing.

I don't get what's so good with electronics. Properly adjusted mechanical shifters just work and, in my experience, last a long time without having to readjust them. Plus they're way cheaper and don't require a charger and batteries.
Amt0571 is offline  
Likes For Amt0571:
Old 02-04-23, 09:41 AM
  #69  
PeteHski
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 5,324
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2705 Post(s)
Liked 2,929 Times in 1,838 Posts
Originally Posted by Calsun
It is a subjective decision. For me it adds another point of failure and I have had no problems using standard shifting with the integrated shifter and brake levers that became common 20 years ago. It is one more thing that may fail and I really don't want to start carrying a spare $100 Di2 battery with me on my bikes.

Shimano product managers need a new gimick to sell more stuff as other than bike chains most bike components do not wear out. It also lets bike companies sell a higher level package to price their bikes higher and make more profit. Pro racers will add a new component in part because they are paid to do so, much like basketball shoes on pro atheletes.
On the other hand it removes the widely reported failure point with cables in Shimano brifters. Not that I ever considered that a major problem, but it was always in the back of my mind.

Nobody carries a spare Di2 battery, although I prefer SRAM individual mech batteries. I donít carry a spare, but you could easily. If one battery fails Iíll just ride with the rear mech only. But not something Iíve had to do yet.
PeteHski is offline  
Old 02-04-23, 09:50 AM
  #70  
Steve B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South shore, L.I., NY
Posts: 6,278

Bikes: Flyxii FR322, Cannondale Topstone, Miyata City Liner, Specialized Chisel, Specialized Epic Evo

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2837 Post(s)
Liked 1,574 Times in 901 Posts
Originally Posted by Amt0571
I
I don't get what's so good with electronics..
Why don't you go back and actually read some of what's been posted here. I know that somebody has commented that electronic mostly needs very little maintenance, other than charging batteries every few months. I am no longer changing mechanical cables that get gummed up, resulting is steadily deteriorating shifting. I like that.
Steve B. is offline  
Old 02-04-23, 10:50 AM
  #71  
DaveSSS 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 7,046

Bikes: Cinelli superstar disc, two Yoeleo R12

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 973 Post(s)
Liked 509 Times in 410 Posts
With electronic, there's really nothing to fix other than the eventual replacement of the RD jockey pulleys, just like with mechanical. If a component quits working, there's little choice but to buy a new part, which is pretty much the case with mechanical. With SRAM, it's easy to carry a spare battery for the derailleurs. Some might also choose to carry extra coin batteries for the shift levers, but those usually last at least a year, so annual changing is good idea. It won't be too long before only the low level component groups are mechanical. Campy will be the last hold out since they were first with 12 speed, but still only have one level of electronic that costs more than most people want to spend.

Same goes for rim brakes. They're disappearing fast. I got rid of mine over 2 years ago.
DaveSSS is offline  
Old 02-04-23, 10:55 AM
  #72  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 3,709
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2157 Post(s)
Liked 1,852 Times in 1,170 Posts
I do carry a spare SRAM battery but in 4-5 years have never had to use it.

If I start to get gear noise in certain gears, I know to check RD hanger alignment.

Everything has an expected failure rate. Mechanical shifters can fail, I have had Ultegra fail on me (the little plastic indexer inside). The RD spring on a mechanical derailleur failed. Thus far, no failures to the front or RD or shifter (one 11 speed and two 12 speeds). I have had TT blip switches wear out and get wonky, but they are easy and relatively cheap to replace.

I doubt I would use etap of axs electronic on a touring expedition in a remote area but on a 2-6 week tour? Why not. If something fails, just overnight the part if the LBS doesn't have it and they probably won't
GhostRider62 is offline  
Old 02-04-23, 11:10 AM
  #73  
smd4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 3,486

Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2095 Post(s)
Liked 1,703 Times in 1,036 Posts
If people are having to adjust and tinker with their mechanical derailleurs or cables with the frequency suggested here, theyíre doing something wrong.

Once properly adjusted, mechanical derailleurs are also ďset and forget.Ē
smd4 is offline  
Likes For smd4:
Old 02-04-23, 12:18 PM
  #74  
terrymorse 
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 5,855

Bikes: Scott Addict R1

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2328 Post(s)
Liked 2,318 Times in 1,174 Posts
Originally Posted by smd4
If people are having to adjust and tinker with their mechanical derailleurs or cables with the frequency suggested here, theyíre doing something wrong.

Once properly adjusted, mechanical derailleurs are also ďset and forget.Ē
Agreed. Other than tweaking the barrel adjuster soon after installing new housing (the "bed in" period), I have never had to adjust my derailleurs. The shifting is instant, also.

Electronic shifting is a spiffy technology, to be sure, but it's a "tech bro" technology. It is not solving any problems.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat

terrymorse is offline  
Likes For terrymorse:
Old 02-04-23, 12:38 PM
  #75  
Amt0571
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Catalonia
Posts: 926

Bikes: Canyon Grand Canyon AL SL 8.0, Triban RC520 Gravel Ltd, Btwin Ultra 520 AF GF, Dahon Mu P27, Triban Road 7, Benotto 850

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Liked 198 Times in 125 Posts
Originally Posted by Steve B.
Why don't you go back and actually read some of what's been posted here. I know that somebody has commented that electronic mostly needs very little maintenance, other than charging batteries every few months. I am no longer changing mechanical cables that get gummed up, resulting is steadily deteriorating shifting. I like that.
Buy good quality cables and outers and they won't gum up.

I ran XTR cables for 7 years straight without a single replacement on my older MTB. More than 25.000km with the same cables. Zero issues.

My current road bike has 4 y/o cables, and my current MTB has been running for 3 years with same cables.

On my gravel bike I just replaced the crappy stock cable with a good quality one. As the former was sticking.
Amt0571 is offline  
Likes For Amt0571:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.