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Electronic vs Mechanical shifting

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Electronic vs Mechanical shifting

Old 02-05-23, 01:50 PM
  #151  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I'm sure golfers have their favourite gear brands that happen to suit their style of play and I can see how being forced to use another brand might be a compromise. Likewise, I'm sure some teams have marginally better bikes than others, but I very much doubt there is a big difference. Phil Gaimon (ex pro) said in one of his books that all the top-tier pro bikes were much of a muchness when he tested them - i.e. all great to ride. None of them would choose a vintage bike to race. Now he's retired he still rides modern pro race bikes out of choice. He's not suddenly riding a steel frame with DT shifters and sew-ups.
Well in all honesty Phil Gaimon had a very short carreer, he is not someone of the level of Mario Cippolini, Stephen Roche, Gianni Bugno, Luc Leblanc, Laurent Fignon,Laurent Brochard, Miguel Indurain were riding steel frames and later alumnium frames with STIs (Altec with 7700 Dura Ace for Brochard and Leblanc when they won their world champion titles) and Ergopower (for Indurain). Pavel Tonkov, Oscar Camenzind, Johan Museuuw, during their time under Mapei were all riding colnago c40s with dura ace 7700 and noDI2 when they won their races. But prior to brifters, it was down tube shifting which was used. He is probably sponsored by brands of which he tries the bikes. There are some steel frames that can hold a candle to any titanium or carbon frame. But all is a matter of tubing quality, and by who the frame is built but it wouldn't economical. The Reynolds 953, 931,921,853 the Dedacciai DR Zero, DR Zero Uno and the Columbus XCR are the tubings that can hold the comparison to any carbon made frame
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Old 02-05-23, 01:51 PM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
A bad implementation of a technology doesn't tell you anything about the overall reliability of that technology. If it did, we would all conclude that automobiles are unreliable, based on the Yugo.
That is true.
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Old 02-05-23, 01:51 PM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Do you think teams like Ineos would tolerate tech that was a disadvantage to their pro riders? Likewise do you think consumers would tolerate new tech that was inferior or less reliable? This was effectively what the OP was asking here and I don’t see any riders complaining about their electronic shifting or wishing they could go back to cable shifters.
The question one ought to ask about any new tech is "Do the benefits this new tech offers justify the additional cost?"

Every design has trade-offs. Electronic shifting trades complexity, weight, and cost for certain perceived benefits.

Some of the claimed benefits, from manufacturer BS marketing claims, with my own "DuraAce mechanical user" responses in parentheses:
  • more accurate front shifting (my front shifting is already accurate)
  • 25% faster RD shifting (improvement from a small fraction of a second to a slightly smaller fraction of a second, are they serious?)
  • customize what a shift lever does (nothing I would ever dream of doing)
  • no chain rub on FD cage (my chain never rubs FD, so no benefit there)
  • shorter lever throw to accomplish FD shift (never once said "gee, if only I could shift with slightly less wrist rotation")
  • put additional shift buttons anywhere (I have no application where I would need that, but others might)
  • minimal maintenance after set up (ditto for mechanical, I never need to touch mine after set up)
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Old 02-05-23, 02:05 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by georges1
Well in all honesty Phil Gaimon had a very short carreer, he is not someone of the level of Mario Cippolini, Stephen Roche, Gianni Bugno, Luc Leblanc, Laurent Fignon,Laurent Brochard, Miguel Indurain were riding steel frames and later alumnium frames with STIs (Altec with 7700 Dura Ace for Brochard and Leblanc when they won their world champion titles) and Ergopower (for Indurain). Pavel Tonkov, Oscar Camenzind, Johan Museuuw, during their time under Mapei were all riding colnago c40s with dura ace 7700 and noDI2 when they won their races. But prior to brifters, it was down tube shifting which was used. He is probably sponsored by brands of which he tries the bikes. There are some steel frames that can hold a candle to any titanium or carbon frame. But all is a matter of tubing quality, and by who the frame is built but it wouldn't economical. The Reynolds 953, 931,921,853 the Dedacciai DR Zero, DR Zero Uno and the Columbus XCR are the tubings that can hold the comparison to any carbon made frame
Putting it another way, all the top-level pros were riding the cutting-edge, highest-end frames and components available that year. Just like today.

Holding a candle to a carbon frame might not be a good idea---that much is true.
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Old 02-05-23, 02:10 PM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I don't know if you even noticed but this thread is about people's experiences with electronic shifting and whether or not they would go back to mechanical. Yet here are all the usual C&V guys, who think modern tech is some kind of conspiracy, talking complete irrelevant bs about the gear I was riding 40+ years ago. They deserve what they get.

It would be bad form to go into the C&V sub-forum and insult the old guard, but they seem to think it's fine to slobber all over tech-based threads like this with their irrelevant stories.

If there was a bicycle innovation sub-forum, you would be slobbering all over that too. Guaranteed!
In fairness, a high percentage of the people on Bike Forums who ride modern tech and pay in the five figures for their bikes are in the age range of the C&V guys, since they're likely in the majority of the potential market that can afford those bikes. Some of the guys who ride those highest-of-high-end bikes are also C&V guys.
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Old 02-05-23, 02:31 PM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
In fairness, a high percentage of the people on Bike Forums who ride modern tech and pay in the five figures for their bikes are in the age range of the C&V guys ...
A high percentage of any sub group on bike forums is probably in the age range of the C&V guys.
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Old 02-05-23, 02:49 PM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by georges1
Well in all honesty Phil Gaimon had a very short carreer, he is not someone of the level of Mario Cippolini, Stephen Roche, Gianni Bugno, Luc Leblanc, Laurent Fignon,Laurent Brochard, Miguel Indurain were riding steel frames and later alumnium frames with STIs (Altec with 7700 Dura Ace for Brochard and Leblanc when they won their world champion titles) and Ergopower (for Indurain). Pavel Tonkov, Oscar Camenzind, Johan Museuuw, during their time under Mapei were all riding colnago c40s with dura ace 7700 and noDI2 when they won their races. But prior to brifters, it was down tube shifting which was used. He is probably sponsored by brands of which he tries the bikes. There are some steel frames that can hold a candle to any titanium or carbon frame. But all is a matter of tubing quality, and by who the frame is built but it wouldn't economical. The Reynolds 953, 931,921,853 the Dedacciai DR Zero, DR Zero Uno and the Columbus XCR are the tubings that can hold the comparison to any carbon made frame
All of those riders you mentioned if riding today would be using the latest tech as the did in their time. Issue is, cycling had a dead period when it was dominated by the Italian manufactures in the 60’s and 70’s. The same lugged frames made with either 531 or Columbus SL tubing, campagnolo dropouts; Campagnolo Record components which remained unchanged for decades. It wasn’t until The Japanese showed up dragging the stagnant bicycle industry out of the 60’s and started innovation did things change. Campagnolo and the italians have effectively never caught up.

Those steel brands you mentioned are not even close to the latest carbon frames in either weight or performance.
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Old 02-05-23, 03:03 PM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I don't know if you even noticed but this thread is about people's experiences with electronic shifting and whether or not they would go back to mechanical. Yet here are all the usual C&V guys, who think modern tech is some kind of conspiracy, talking complete irrelevant bs about the gear I was riding 40+ years ago. They deserve what they get.

It would be bad form to go into the C&V sub-forum and insult the old guard, but they seem to think it's fine to slobber all over tech-based threads like this with their irrelevant stories.

If there was a bicycle innovation sub-forum, you would be slobbering all over that too. Guaranteed!
The future for high end road groups is electronic, no question. Shimano essentially dominates the road market, SRAM would not agree, but with Shimano now moving 105 to electronic, a statement is made that this is the future for high end. I cannot find any useful info. as to will Shimano also manufacture a mechanical 105 group, which I have heard, and hope they do. But the C&V guys are likely to be on electronic in 10 years, whether they want it or not. What has me puzzled is the lack if Di2 groups on high end mt. bikes. SRAM AXS has seemingly done better in that community (wireless shifter helps). But it seems rare to see an expensive carbon mt. bike equipped from the factory with Di2, which is odd as a mt. bike is arguably a better place to use electronic than mechanical. You do get the concern of an expensive rear derailer if you crunch one, but you shift more on a mt. bike (IME) and you don't have cables to replace. Seems a no brainer yet it's rare.

Last edited by Steve B.; 02-05-23 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 02-05-23, 03:29 PM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by Steve B.
What has me puzzled is the lack if Di2 groups on high end mt. bikes. SRAM AXS has seemingly done better in that community (wireless shifter helps). But it seems rare to see an expensive carbon mt. bike equipped from the factory with Di2, which is odd as a mt. bike is arguably a better place to use electronic than mechanical. You do get the concern of an expensive rear derailer if you crunch one, but you shift more on a mt. bike (IME) and you don't have cables to replace. Seems a no brainer yet it's rare.
Too much risk of damage....It's just not worth the risk smashing a $ 700 derailleur on rocks or ripping it off when hitting something.
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Old 02-05-23, 03:34 PM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by Steve B.
But the C&V guys are likely to be on electronic in 10 years, whether they want it or not.
10 years from now I hope I still have enough fitness and strength to continue riding SS.... So basically what you're saying is that the bike industry will force all cyclist to go electronic or quit cycling if you don't want electronic ??.
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Old 02-05-23, 04:12 PM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
10 years from now I hope I still have enough fitness and strength to continue riding SS.... So basically what you're saying is that the bike industry will force all cyclist to go electronic or quit cycling if you don't want electronic ??.
Not sure how SRAM will proceed. Shimano is clearly sending a message that the future is electronic if they choose to not produce a 105 mechanical group. Will that trickle down to Sora and Tiagra ?, who knows. With so many people buying and moving to e-bikes, the idea of needing to charge the bike will be less an issue with users, the shifting system being electronic as well will not matter.,
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Old 02-05-23, 04:17 PM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by georges1
Well in all honesty Phil Gaimon had a very short carreer, he is not someone of the level of Mario Cippolini, Stephen Roche, Gianni Bugno, Luc Leblanc, Laurent Fignon,Laurent Brochard, Miguel Indurain were riding steel frames and later alumnium frames with STIs (Altec with 7700 Dura Ace for Brochard and Leblanc when they won their world champion titles) and Ergopower (for Indurain). Pavel Tonkov, Oscar Camenzind, Johan Museuuw, during their time under Mapei were all riding colnago c40s with dura ace 7700 and noDI2 when they won their races. But prior to brifters, it was down tube shifting which was used. He is probably sponsored by brands of which he tries the bikes. There are some steel frames that can hold a candle to any titanium or carbon frame. But all is a matter of tubing quality, and by who the frame is built but it wouldn't economical. The Reynolds 953, 931,921,853 the Dedacciai DR Zero, DR Zero Uno and the Columbus XCR are the tubings that can hold the comparison to any carbon made frame
I mentioned Phil Gaimon simply because he has ridden and reviewed a lot of modern bikes and doesnít get all misty eyed about them. Not because he was a star rider, although no doubt heís considerably better than everyone in this forum.

Anyway I hope you are not seriously suggesting that Indurain would be riding a steel bike if he were racing today? That would be delusional.
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Old 02-05-23, 04:35 PM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by georges1
I have experienced the mavic ZMS and mavic mektronic back then and I wasn't enamored nor wowed by results. I am pretty sure that you know the saying"old tech that works is good tech". I haven't seen much people riding their road bikes with DI2 or ETAP where I am living. Remember what Mollema said about his SRAM equipment in one of the stages of theTDF???
Mollema blaming sram. Is an electronic derailleur that fails a sign of reliability? No, not at all. Interesting article about Shimano Dura Ace 7970 DI2 in the professional peloton and another fact from theTDF2022 is that 17 teams were using Shimano Dura-Ace Di2 groupset (thatís 136 bikes out of 176 bikes), three teams are with Campagnolo Super Record 12 speed groupset and two teams are on SRAM Red 12 speed, also 13 teams were using the Shimano Dura-Ace SPD-SL pedals, 8 teams are with Look Keo pedals, and one team with Speedplay. That says a lot about the dominance of Dura Ace in the professional peloton. Another interesting article about Victories of Dura Ace DI2 in theTDF
Well Iíve experienced SRAM Force AXS and wonít be buying any more mechanical groupsets.

Mechanical things sometimes fail whether they are cable or motor actuated. But I donít think reliability is a major issue for anyone at this point. So it really comes down to performance and cost. Now we have SRAM Rival and Shimano 105 electronic groups I donít think cost is a major issue for most.

The only mechanical group Iíve considered recently is Campag Ekar for its 1x13 setup. But reviews tend to be critical of its clunky shift quality, especially compared to electronic options.

Iím also a bit disappointed that Di2 is not fully wireless at this point, which is why I favour SRAM AXS, especially on a self build.
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Old 02-05-23, 04:43 PM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
Too much risk of damage....It's just not worth the risk smashing a $ 700 derailleur on rocks or ripping it off when hitting something.
You donít have to pay $700 for an electronic rear mech.
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Old 02-05-23, 04:48 PM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I mentioned Phil Gaimon simply because he has ridden and reviewed a lot of modern bikes and doesn’t get all misty eyed about them. Not because he was a star rider, although no doubt he’s considerably better than everyone in this forum.

Anyway I hope you are not seriously suggesting that Indurain would be riding a steel bike if he were racing today? That would be delusional.
Indurain's first Tour de France win was on an Oria Tig welded Pinarello Paris with C Record 1st gen Ergopower and C Record. And interesting article about Miguel Indurain's Pinarello and his love for steel bikes The later wins of Indurain were done with steel More about Miguel Indurain's wins , so he would choose a steel frame as he won all his tdf on a steel frame. Even his Time Trial bike was a steel made one by Pegoretti with an interesting article about it, Miguel Indurain's time trial bike. Like I said , steel has lots of qualities and for the reminder, before the introduction of more exotic materials such as aluminium, titanium and carbon, Reynolds was considered the dominant maker of high end materials for bicycle frames, with 27 winners of the Tour de France winning the race riding on Reynolds tubing with the 531C and the 753 introduced in1974.

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Old 02-05-23, 04:53 PM
  #166  
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Just like wood is still a great material for making a guitar, so steel is still a good bike frame material.
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Old 02-05-23, 04:59 PM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by georges1
Indurain's first Tour de France win was on an Oria Tig welded Pinarello Paris with C Record 1st gen Ergopower and C Record. And interesting article about Miguel Indurain's Pinarello and his love for steel bikes The later wins of Indurain were done with steel More about Miguel Indurain's wins , so he would choose a steel frame as he won all his tdf on a steel frame. Even his Time Trial bike was a steel made one by Pegoretti with an interesting article about it, Miguel Indurain's time trial bike. Like I said , steel has lots of qualities and for the reminder, before the introduction of more exotic materials such as aluminium, titanium and carbon, Reynolds was considered the dominant maker of high end materials for bicycle frames, with 27 winners of the Tour de France winning the race riding on Reynolds tubing with the 531C and the 753 introduced in1974.
Why do you think a steel bike hasnít won the TDF since 1994? Why are Ineos not riding steel Pinarellos today?
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Old 02-05-23, 05:17 PM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Why do you think a steel bike hasn’t won the TDF since 1994? Why are Ineos not riding steel Pinarellos today?
Technology evolves and to produce a custom made frame would cost more than riding your carbon frame. The last wins with Ulrich and Riis were done on Pinarello Prince bikes made of Dedacciai 7003 Ultralite Aluminium frames and Pantani with a Bianchi made of Dedacciai 7003 Ultralite frame as well.It has been16 years only that Carbon frame have been winning TDF, tour de France winners since 1903.
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Old 02-05-23, 05:21 PM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
You donít have to pay $700 for an electronic rear mech.
Google shows me that $753 is the current selling price. I paid far less then that for the whole system.
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Old 02-05-23, 05:22 PM
  #170  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
Too much risk of damage....It's just not worth the risk smashing a $ 700 derailleur on rocks or ripping it off when hitting something.
An electronic RD doesn't have to cost $700. GX Eagle AXS is $390. Road/gravel RDs go down to $300. I ride road and haven't damaged a RD in 35 years.

How about folks riding a $5,000 frame that could get trashed?

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Old 02-05-23, 05:28 PM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
Well said. Part of the issue is these traditional forums are skewed to an much older demographic which is not very progressive in their views and not representative of modern sport cycling. Like Japanese soldiers left on a South Pacific Island fighting a war long since lost, they are still debating, index shifting, 3X drivetrains, tubular tires, lugged steel frames, brifters, carbon fibre, disc brakes, etc. Show a picture of a restored semi mass produced Masi or Cinelli which litter eBay, Craigslist or FB Marketplace and you get tearful accolades after recalling a time when their part time job did not spin out enough cash to purchase said dream bike. This is the last place to come for advice around bike tech.

But entertainment thatís a different story.
Sort of like the guys riding electric bikes up Alpe d'huez asking why anyone would ride up on old, obsolete tech. Just a bunch of old fashioned, nostalgic, tearful dreamers.
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Old 02-05-23, 05:29 PM
  #172  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Iím also a bit disappointed that Di2 is not fully wireless at this point, which is why I favour SRAM AXS, especially on a self build.
There are those of us that are old farts that appreciate the technology and will convert an older bike to electronic. I enjoyed my di2 setup I had on another bike, but my Emonda ALR is not designed for internal routing, so SRAM AXS was the only option. I too was disappointed with Shimano not being fully wireless, but I have not been disappointed with the SRAM AXS at all. In fact, I have enjoyed it very much.
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Old 02-05-23, 05:37 PM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by seypat
I can tell you from personal experience caddying on one of the golf tours that players did not necessarily play the equipment that worked best for them. They'd play what they were paid to and adjust/adapt.....

Plenty of stories like that from golf. Whether it happens in cycling, I don't know.
Of course it does. There's no better example than disk brakes on road bikes. It's no secret that pro riders such as those competing in the TDF resisted disk brakes for as long as they could. While disk brakes may offer advantages on mountain bikes or other types of riding, they offer nothing to a TDF rider other than increased weight and complexity compared to the very effective, lightweight, and ultra-reliable caliper brakes they had been using. But Trek, Giant, Specialized, and Cannondale wanted to sell people on the idea that unless you had disk brakes, your bike was obsolete. So the team bikes they provided all had disk brakes, regardless of the preferences of the actual riders. And then people saw the TDF riders with disk brakes, and started shopping for a new bike. That's just one example.

That's the tradeoff pro riders (and many other athletes) make for sponsorship. They have to advertise the vendor's wares.

Last edited by Jeff Neese; 02-05-23 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 02-05-23, 06:21 PM
  #174  
Atlas Shrugged
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Originally Posted by L134
Sort of like the guys riding electric bikes up Alpe d'huez asking why anyone would ride up on old, obsolete tech. Just a bunch of old fashioned, nostalgic, tearful dreamers.
Not at all. Electric bikes are just another category adjacent to the sport of cycling and as technology develops the line may blur a little however it will always be seen as separate to the self propelled sport of cycling. In comparison if someone elects to pull an old straight block friction shift 2x5 Colnago from the shed are ride it up L’Alpe more power to them. Rest assured if someone does do that and rides back down they won’t be extolling the virtues of mid 70’s technology anymore especially if they follow that up with a current bike such as a Aethos.
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Old 02-05-23, 06:25 PM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
it will always be seen as separate to the self propelled sport of cycling. I
Ah, if only that were so!!
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