First impressions of GP5000 from longtime Gatorskin user
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Northeastern MA, USA
Posts: 1,678
Bikes: Garmin/Tacx Bike Smart
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Liked 289 Times
in
191 Posts
It means that you require more power to overcome the resistance, yes. But as I noted before:
The power required to overcome a given source of resistance is equal to the resistive force multiplied by your speed.
The force of rolling resistance doesn't change much with speed, so the power to overcome it is roughly linear with speed (more on this below). By contrast, aerodynamic drag force increases quadratically with the relative wind speed, which means that aerodynamic drag power increases roughly cubically with rider speed. This results in aerodynamic drag becoming very dominant at high speeds, making changes to other sources of resistance less pronounced.
That's a reasonable objection. Most tests - both those conducted by people using Virtual Elevation measurement methodology, and this article on BRR - suggest that the force of rolling resistance does increase with increasing speed. However, they also generally agree that this effect is pretty subtle. For instance, in the Bicycle Rolling Resistance article, doubling speed from 4m/s to 8m/s caused a 9% increase in the force of rolling resistance, while the same change in speed would cause the aerodynamic drag force to quadruple (i.e. increase by ~300%).
The power required to overcome a given source of resistance is equal to the resistive force multiplied by your speed.
The force of rolling resistance doesn't change much with speed, so the power to overcome it is roughly linear with speed (more on this below). By contrast, aerodynamic drag force increases quadratically with the relative wind speed, which means that aerodynamic drag power increases roughly cubically with rider speed. This results in aerodynamic drag becoming very dominant at high speeds, making changes to other sources of resistance less pronounced.
That's a reasonable objection. Most tests - both those conducted by people using Virtual Elevation measurement methodology, and this article on BRR - suggest that the force of rolling resistance does increase with increasing speed. However, they also generally agree that this effect is pretty subtle. For instance, in the Bicycle Rolling Resistance article, doubling speed from 4m/s to 8m/s caused a 9% increase in the force of rolling resistance, while the same change in speed would cause the aerodynamic drag force to quadruple (i.e. increase by ~300%).
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,373
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4384 Post(s)
Liked 4,824 Times
in
2,981 Posts
A good middle ground between performance and (genuine) puncture resistance is the Pirelli Cinturato Velo. Faster and more supple than Gatorskins with even better puncture resistance according to the well known test site. They have been totally bombproof for me, riding all last season on the ****tiest of roads without even a hint of damage. On the back of that performance I briefly tried Pirelli P-Zero Race TLR, which felt really nice, but punctured 2 of those badly in short order. Both written-off with less than 500 km. I have a set of the latest GP5000 S TR on my new bike, so will see if these survive any better! If not I'll be putting Cinturato Velos on that bike too.
Likes For PeteHski:
#28
I eat carbide.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 21,627
Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1325 Post(s)
Liked 1,306 Times
in
560 Posts
TLDR: OP switched from tires made of rock to softer performance tire - admits they ride better. Only people surprised and betrayed are people who can't tell when their whole bike is making noise or falling apart, those who are afraid to change a flat, and those for whom spending money on a good tire is their form of ultimate sin.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels
#29
Senior Member
These "debates" are as much informative as cable debates on the HIFI forums. PPL will duke it out for days over literally non existent differences. Now, Im not saying any tyre is the same. Obviously they are not, but subjective impressions are highly susceptible to all kinds of bias and clams should be taken with more than a pinch of salt.
Why is it no one publish any data to support the claims of highly improved "comfort" when is should be easy measuring vibration acceleration with different tyres at the same pressure over the same streach of road with the same speed? Even a phone can do that!
Why is it no one publish any data to support the claims of highly improved "comfort" when is should be easy measuring vibration acceleration with different tyres at the same pressure over the same streach of road with the same speed? Even a phone can do that!
#30
Method to My Madness
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,641
Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata GRX
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1939 Post(s)
Liked 1,461 Times
in
1,012 Posts
#31
I eat carbide.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 21,627
Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1325 Post(s)
Liked 1,306 Times
in
560 Posts
How'd you know I just bought new wheels and tires for the PSIMET-mobile?
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,373
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4384 Post(s)
Liked 4,824 Times
in
2,981 Posts
These "debates" are as much informative as cable debates on the HIFI forums. PPL will duke it out for days over literally non existent differences. Now, Im not saying any tyre is the same. Obviously they are not, but subjective impressions are highly susceptible to all kinds of bias and clams should be taken with more than a pinch of salt.
Why is it no one publish any data to support the claims of highly improved "comfort" when is should be easy measuring vibration acceleration with different tyres at the same pressure over the same streach of road with the same speed? Even a phone can do that!
Why is it no one publish any data to support the claims of highly improved "comfort" when is should be easy measuring vibration acceleration with different tyres at the same pressure over the same streach of road with the same speed? Even a phone can do that!
Likes For PeteHski:
#33
I eat carbide.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 21,627
Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1325 Post(s)
Liked 1,306 Times
in
560 Posts
These "debates" are as much informative as cable debates on the HIFI forums. PPL will duke it out for days over literally non existent differences. Now, Im not saying any tyre is the same. Obviously they are not, but subjective impressions are highly susceptible to all kinds of bias and clams should be taken with more than a pinch of salt.
Why is it no one publish any data to support the claims of highly improved "comfort" when is should be easy measuring vibration acceleration with different tyres at the same pressure over the same streach of road with the same speed? Even a phone can do that!
Why is it no one publish any data to support the claims of highly improved "comfort" when is should be easy measuring vibration acceleration with different tyres at the same pressure over the same streach of road with the same speed? Even a phone can do that!
You have people that are testing them in their own way and publishing what they feel is data on rolling resistance. I am sure they are putting other variable on their stuff now. What you learn quickly though is that in an industry like ours there isn't enough money to truly test without the implicit bias of the tester changing enough of the test through their assumptions or design to be reliable (look at any aero or friction test with a critical eye and disagree with me using a straight face).
Yet the differences are there. Shimano 5400 and 7800 might in fact both perform perfectly and produce the same effect of changing gears and stopping the bike. The 7800 will be lighter but most likely by less than the difference of having a water bottle on the bike or not. Yet I absolutely know when I am riding 7800. The smoothness and feel/feedback of using the system is undeniable. So subjective feedback has value.
If we come to a forum and ask for input and 7 out of 10 riders who have "ridden both" cite some of the same benefits then there's either something to it or those 7 feel some strange need to rationalize their purchase to others (a behavior I never truly understand).
Tires are easy though. A performance tire is night and day different. At the edge they can allow the rider to push the performance of the tire. With novices they can change the "feel" of the whole bike and add a level of enjoyment to the entire experience - without an obvious performance improvement. Supple tires ride better. Softer tires feel better. More traction gives you more confidence. All subjective things but attributes those of us who can easily feel the difference find important.
Now...feeling the difference between a Pirelli PZero Velo, Vittoria Corsa Control, GP5000, etc that's a bit more nuanced but something even I can feel in short order. Doubt it? Buy a slew of performance tires and swap them between every ride until you start to hone in on what it's all about.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels
#34
I eat carbide.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 21,627
Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1325 Post(s)
Liked 1,306 Times
in
560 Posts
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels
#35
Super-duper Genius
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Muskrat Springs, Utah
Posts: 1,713
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 768 Post(s)
Liked 984 Times
in
508 Posts
"I switched from Gatorskins to some high performance tires, but the new ones don't offer better grip, less resistance, or nicer handling," said no one, ever.
Likes For Broctoon:
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,097 Times
in
1,314 Posts
These "debates" are as much informative as cable debates on the HIFI forums. PPL will duke it out for days over literally non existent differences. Now, Im not saying any tyre is the same. Obviously they are not, but subjective impressions are highly susceptible to all kinds of bias and clams should be taken with more than a pinch of salt.
Why is it no one publish any data to support the claims of highly improved "comfort" when is should be easy measuring vibration acceleration with different tyres at the same pressure over the same streach of road with the same speed? Even a phone can do that!
Why is it no one publish any data to support the claims of highly improved "comfort" when is should be easy measuring vibration acceleration with different tyres at the same pressure over the same streach of road with the same speed? Even a phone can do that!
Likes For GhostRider62:
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Hacienda Hgts
Posts: 2,100
Bikes: 1999 Schwinn Peloton Ultegra 10, Kestrel RT-1000 Ultegra, Trek Marlin 6 Deore 29'er
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 821 Post(s)
Liked 1,955 Times
in
941 Posts
Some of us on a budget have to figure in consumables and getting bang for the buck.
As long as I hold out, I will never know the difference.
I am inching to performance tires. I have switched from Gatorskins to super grippy Michs All Seasons.
Roll better and less road chatter than the Skins but with grip you have more rolling resistance but I have had several close calls where I fishtail so the added traction keeps the rubber side down.
As long as I hold out, I will never know the difference.
I am inching to performance tires. I have switched from Gatorskins to super grippy Michs All Seasons.
Roll better and less road chatter than the Skins but with grip you have more rolling resistance but I have had several close calls where I fishtail so the added traction keeps the rubber side down.
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: North Central Wisconsin
Posts: 4,618
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2973 Post(s)
Liked 1,178 Times
in
769 Posts
All the good stuff is here. GP5000 rank near the top.
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...d-bike-reviews
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...d-bike-reviews
#39
Senior Member
Maybe it isnt all that funny after all. At road pressures there are no "supple" tyres. They are all "frozen garden hoses" and any inherent suppleness that can be felt fondling a tyre off the bike is completely swamped at 80 psi. Maybe some one should quantify just how much pressure difference would completely negate the difference between a claimed supple tyre and not supple tyre. I bet you its not much, as suppleness and comfort is mostly pressure related to begin with, - except maybe outside of the most extreme anti puncture tyres like marathon plus and such.
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: North Central Wisconsin
Posts: 4,618
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2973 Post(s)
Liked 1,178 Times
in
769 Posts
Maybe it isnt all that funny after all. At road pressures there are no "supple" tyres. They are all "frozen garden hoses" and any inherent suppleness that can be felt fondling a tyre off the bike is completely swamped at 80 psi. Maybe some one should quantify just how much pressure difference would completely negate the difference between a claimed supple tyre and not supple tyre. I bet you its not much, as suppleness and comfort is mostly pressure related to begin with, - except maybe outside of the most extreme anti puncture tyres like marathon plus and such.
#41
I eat carbide.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 21,627
Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1325 Post(s)
Liked 1,306 Times
in
560 Posts
The casing on a tire absolutely affects how supple the tire feels and rides at a given pressure - even at high ones.
I can have a pile of concrete held in a steel container and it most likely won't move if apply a force to it's side. I can have it in a cloth container and it will move when I apply a force to it's side.
I had a brand new tubular set of wheels I glued up and gave to a kid (who went pro in the following month) right before a downtown crit with a lot of corners. He raced on them (23mm) at over 100 psi. He won the race. he came over to thank me afterwards and told me how much more confident he was in the corners and how that allowed him to save energy and win. I looked at the BRAND NEW tire and he had completely worn the hot-patch off the sidewall during one crit.
You can believe that pressure eliminates the suppleness of a tire but that would be 100% false.
Now - does a tire at lower pressure feel more supple than the same tire at high pressure? Absolutely. That's why the pros race on single digit PSI tubulars in cyclocross.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 7,349
Bikes: RSO E-tire dropper fixie brifter
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 2,941 Times
in
1,904 Posts
I can at least count on the garden hose to crack at some point. The Gskins, they just continue to make that hard rotational thump... I think the Gskins tires frighten loose concrete road debris back into its pothole.
__________________
-Oh Hey!
-Oh Hey!
Likes For Troul:
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,831
Bikes: Trek Domane SL6 Gen 3, Soma Fog Cutter, Focus Mares AL, Detroit Bikes Sparrow FG, Volae Team, Nimbus MUni
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 892 Post(s)
Liked 2,048 Times
in
1,072 Posts
TLDR: OP switched from tires made of rock to softer performance tire - admits they ride better. Only people surprised and betrayed are people who can't tell when their whole bike is making noise or falling apart, those who are afraid to change a flat, and those for whom spending money on a good tire is their form of ultimate sin.
Amazing how resistance numbers on blah blah dot com, marketing from Conti and tire sellers, and opinions from all y'all on the forums have convinced me to ignore my butt and believe. But I do, man, I really do. Ain't capitalism grand?
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 6,864
Bikes: Trek Domane SLR 7 AXS, Trek CheckPoint SL7 AXS, Trek Emonda ALR AXS, Trek FX 5 Sport
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 760 Post(s)
Liked 1,717 Times
in
1,003 Posts
There's an alternative starting to happen north of the border based on what I am seeing in the internets.
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,831
Bikes: Trek Domane SL6 Gen 3, Soma Fog Cutter, Focus Mares AL, Detroit Bikes Sparrow FG, Volae Team, Nimbus MUni
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 892 Post(s)
Liked 2,048 Times
in
1,072 Posts
Who else remembers when Sting sang that the Russians loved their children too, and us Americans were traumatized at such a thought?
Likes For downtube42:
#46
Method to My Madness
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,641
Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata GRX
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1939 Post(s)
Liked 1,461 Times
in
1,012 Posts
... I truly believe with all my heart that the GP5000 is superior in every way. That's why I tossed that POS tire and bought another GP5000 when I got home from the trip. That's why I'm watching all the web stores like a hawk, for the first GP5000 S TR's to be available at full retail for my next 1200.
Amazing how resistance numbers on blah blah dot com, marketing from Conti and tire sellers, and opinions from all y'all on the forums have convinced me to ignore my butt and believe. But I do, man, I really do. Ain't capitalism grand?
Amazing how resistance numbers on blah blah dot com, marketing from Conti and tire sellers, and opinions from all y'all on the forums have convinced me to ignore my butt and believe. But I do, man, I really do. Ain't capitalism grand?
I love the life this thread has taken even though we have convinced Symox to buy another GP5000.
Likes For SoSmellyAir:
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,831
Bikes: Trek Domane SL6 Gen 3, Soma Fog Cutter, Focus Mares AL, Detroit Bikes Sparrow FG, Volae Team, Nimbus MUni
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 892 Post(s)
Liked 2,048 Times
in
1,072 Posts
Perhaps because you were touring on a loaded bike?
I think the apt "ism" you meant is "consumerism"?
I love the life this thread has taken even though we have convinced Symox to buy another GP5000.
I think the apt "ism" you meant is "consumerism"?
I love the life this thread has taken even though we have convinced Symox to buy another GP5000.
My saddle bag had a wool sweater, rain jacket, warm gloves, arm and leg warmers, and emergency foil blanket. When you're spending 4 unsupported days on the road with elevation from 0 to 7000 ft, you carry stuff. Frame bag had repair kit and a bit of food. So less than touring, without the camping/cooking stuff, but definitely more than a day ride.
Likes For downtube42:
#48
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 702
Bikes: '23 Poseidon Redwood, '07 Specialized Roubaix Comp Triple, '12 Gravity Fixie, '21 Liv Rove 4, '06? Giant EB Spirit
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 345 Post(s)
Liked 237 Times
in
151 Posts
Went on a long ride I'd been doing for years on Gatorskins but used the GP5000s. This is with the same 28mm tires and tire pressures between the tire models. The GP5000s are faster, grippier, quieter and more fun to ride. I wouldn't say its a huge difference, but its big enough that I probably won't go back to gatorskins. As a bonus, i like how the GP5000 doesn't look like it will "thread out" on the sidewalls like the Gatorskins do.
I'm a convert, but you wont find me trashing Gatorskins - they are a great tire as well. One (the GP5000) is more geared toward ride performance whereas the Gatorskin is focused on robustness.
I'm a convert, but you wont find me trashing Gatorskins - they are a great tire as well. One (the GP5000) is more geared toward ride performance whereas the Gatorskin is focused on robustness.
#49
Senior Member
I don't like getting flats, which is the main reason I prefer GatorSkins