dmanthree

Well, shoot. There goes another one of my excuses for being slow. Not to worry, though. Due to a recent crash my "roadie" days are pretty much over.

PeteHski

A good middle ground between performance and (genuine) puncture resistance is the Pirelli Cinturato Velo. Faster and more supple than Gatorskins with even better puncture resistance according to the well known test site. They have been totally bombproof for me, riding all last season on the ****tiest of roads without even a hint of damage. On the back of that performance I briefly tried Pirelli P-Zero Race TLR, which felt really nice, but punctured 2 of those badly in short order. Both written-off with less than 500 km. I have a set of the latest GP5000 S TR on my new bike, so will see if these survive any better! If not I'll be putting Cinturato Velos on that bike too.

Psimet2001 

TLDR: OP switched from tires made of rock to softer performance tire - admits they ride better. Only people surprised and betrayed are people who can't tell when their whole bike is making noise or falling apart, those who are afraid to change a flat, and those for whom spending money on a good tire is their form of ultimate sin.

Racing Dan

These "debates" are as much informative as cable debates on the HIFI forums. PPL will duke it out for days over literally non existent differences. Now, Im not saying any tyre is the same. Obviously they are not, but subjective impressions are highly susceptible to all kinds of bias and clams should be taken with more than a pinch of salt.

Why is it no one publish any data to support the claims of highly improved "comfort" when is should be easy measuring vibration acceleration with different tyres at the same pressure over the same streach of road with the same speed? Even a phone can do that!

SoSmellyAir

You mean like those who put cheapo "buy 3 get the 4th free" tires on their ultimate driving machines?

Psimet2001 

How'd you know I just bought new wheels and tires for the PSIMET-mobile?

PeteHski

Yeah, but these particular 2 tyres are about as far apart as you can get on the performance vs utility spectrum. Road racing vs frozen garden hose

Psimet2001 

The engineer in me enjoys the idea of this but the reality of execution makes it a bit of a non-starter. For starters it is highly subjective for sure but that doesn't mean it's "in their head". I can bomb a downhill turn and know instantly the difference we're talking about. Putting those variables and differences on a 5 feature polar chart on the side of a box...

You have people that are testing them in their own way and publishing what they feel is data on rolling resistance. I am sure they are putting other variable on their stuff now. What you learn quickly though is that in an industry like ours there isn't enough money to truly test without the implicit bias of the tester changing enough of the test through their assumptions or design to be reliable (look at any aero or friction test with a critical eye and disagree with me using a straight face).

Yet the differences are there. Shimano 5400 and 7800 might in fact both perform perfectly and produce the same effect of changing gears and stopping the bike. The 7800 will be lighter but most likely by less than the difference of having a water bottle on the bike or not. Yet I absolutely know when I am riding 7800. The smoothness and feel/feedback of using the system is undeniable. So subjective feedback has value.

If we come to a forum and ask for input and 7 out of 10 riders who have "ridden both" cite some of the same benefits then there's either something to it or those 7 feel some strange need to rationalize their purchase to others (a behavior I never truly understand).

Tires are easy though. A performance tire is night and day different. At the edge they can allow the rider to push the performance of the tire. With novices they can change the "feel" of the whole bike and add a level of enjoyment to the entire experience - without an obvious performance improvement. Supple tires ride better. Softer tires feel better. More traction gives you more confidence. All subjective things but attributes those of us who can easily feel the difference find important.

Now...feeling the difference between a Pirelli PZero Velo, Vittoria Corsa Control, GP5000, etc that's a bit more nuanced but something even I can feel in short order. Doubt it? Buy a slew of performance tires and swap them between every ride until you start to hone in on what it's all about.

Psimet2001 

Broctoon

"I switched from Gatorskins to some high performance tires, but the new ones don't offer better grip, less resistance, or nicer handling," said no one, ever.

GhostRider62

I often wonder why a micrometer isn't used to compare the width of the Grand Canyon to a sewer pipe.

CAT7RDR

Some of us on a budget have to figure in consumables and getting bang for the buck.
As long as I hold out, I will never know the difference.

I am inching to performance tires. I have switched from Gatorskins to super grippy Michs All Seasons.
Roll better and less road chatter than the Skins but with grip you have more rolling resistance but I have had several close calls where I fishtail so the added traction keeps the rubber side down.

prj71

All the good stuff is here. GP5000 rank near the top.

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...d-bike-reviews

Racing Dan

Maybe it isnt all that funny after all. At road pressures there are no "supple" tyres. They are all "frozen garden hoses" and any inherent suppleness that can be felt fondling a tyre off the bike is completely swamped at 80 psi. Maybe some one should quantify just how much pressure difference would completely negate the difference between a claimed supple tyre and not supple tyre. I bet you its not much, as suppleness and comfort is mostly pressure related to begin with, - except maybe outside of the most extreme anti puncture tyres like marathon plus and such.

prj71

700 x 32 on my Domane. 80 rear / 70 front. Very supple.

Psimet2001 

This is immensely false. There's a reason we all discussed how supple silk tubulars were back in the day vs hard clinchers - those were at massively high/stupid pressures. many raced at 140psi or north of that. On the track I still have Masters National champs who still wear at riding 200psi for sprinting or they will "lose control"

The casing on a tire absolutely affects how supple the tire feels and rides at a given pressure - even at high ones.

I can have a pile of concrete held in a steel container and it most likely won't move if apply a force to it's side. I can have it in a cloth container and it will move when I apply a force to it's side.

I had a brand new tubular set of wheels I glued up and gave to a kid (who went pro in the following month) right before a downtown crit with a lot of corners. He raced on them (23mm) at over 100 psi. He won the race. he came over to thank me afterwards and told me how much more confident he was in the corners and how that allowed him to save energy and win. I looked at the BRAND NEW tire and he had completely worn the hot-patch off the sidewall during one crit.

You can believe that pressure eliminates the suppleness of a tire but that would be 100% false.

Now - does a tire at lower pressure feel more supple than the same tire at high pressure? Absolutely. That's why the pros race on single digit PSI tubulars in cyclocross.

Troul 

I can at least count on the garden hose to crack at some point. The Gskins, they just continue to make that hard rotational thump... I think the Gskins tires frighten loose concrete road debris back into its pothole.

downtube42

Small twist on this. Although I couldn't feel any difference when my ruined GP5000 was replaced with a generic tire halfway to Crater Lake, I truly believe with all my heart that the GP5000 is superior in every way. That's why I tossed that POS tire and bought another GP5000 when I got home from the trip. That's why I'm watching all the web stores like a hawk, for the first GP5000 S TR's to be available at full retail for my next 1200.

Amazing how resistance numbers on blah blah dot com, marketing from Conti and tire sellers, and opinions from all y'all on the forums have convinced me to ignore my butt and believe. But I do, man, I really do. Ain't capitalism grand?

jaxgtr

There's an alternative starting to happen north of the border based on what I am seeing in the internets.

downtube42

of all the isms, our ism is the best ism.

Who else remembers when Sting sang that the Russians loved their children too, and us Americans were traumatized at such a thought?

SoSmellyAir

Perhaps because you were touring on a loaded bike?

I think the apt "ism" you meant is "consumerism"?

I love the life this thread has taken even though we have convinced Symox to buy another GP5000.

downtube42

I was randonneuring! Sometimes called light fast touring, but really just stupidly long days interrupted by stupidly short sleeps in hotels. Day 1 was 250 miles; not fast, but with that much time on the bike, smooth is good. I think even with the brick on the back, my hands benefitted from the GP5000 on the front.

My saddle bag had a wool sweater, rain jacket, warm gloves, arm and leg warmers, and emergency foil blanket. When you're spending 4 unsupported days on the road with elevation from 0 to 7000 ft, you carry stuff. Frame bag had repair kit and a bit of food. So less than touring, without the camping/cooking stuff, but definitely more than a day ride.

Symox

Went on a long ride I'd been doing for years on Gatorskins but used the GP5000s. This is with the same 28mm tires and tire pressures between the tire models. The GP5000s are faster, grippier, quieter and more fun to ride. I wouldn't say its a huge difference, but its big enough that I probably won't go back to gatorskins. As a bonus, i like how the GP5000 doesn't look like it will "thread out" on the sidewalls like the Gatorskins do.

I'm a convert, but you wont find me trashing Gatorskins - they are a great tire as well. One (the GP5000) is more geared toward ride performance whereas the Gatorskin is focused on robustness.

ussprinceton

I don't like getting flats, which is the main reason I prefer GatorSkins

prj71

Me either. That's why I run GP5000