FBinNY 

I'm equally confused. At the very least the builder could provide a new sleeve, which the OP could have fitted and reamed locally.

I also don't understand how he can't find a decent shop locally, given that he's surrounded by some of the top shops in the USA, ie. Clean Machine, TLC for bikes, Back Alley Bikes, and others.

I suspect that the OP is just one of those horses who refuses to drink.

Then again, it's his bike.

Steve_sr

He has closed up during the pandemic and moved out of the area

Steve_sr

They don't consider it a problem.

Didn't get much help here. Most of the FB in the forum seem to use steel and don't have experience with Ti.

Camilo

That makes sense, although, my guess is that this particular problem would be solvable by a steel frame builder, or at least have some experience-based ideas.

Best of luck getting this fixed.

Steve_sr

Ultimately, this is the path that I would like to take. However, since the builder doesn't consider this an issue they would likely to be unwilling to provide a sleeve.

I would suspect that these sleevs are pre-made and could be bought. I would rather just buy one but don't know where. Any suggestions? BTW, any bike shop is going to have the same issue unless they happen to know where to get these sleeves.

I am familiar with 2 of these 3 and may hit them up after the holidays. I don't know if they have experience working with Ti frames. I did call a fourth shop this morning, Oak City Bikes and one of t he guys was a steel frame builder with no experience in titanium. His recommendation was that if it doesn't slip just ride it!

3alarmer 

...all you require for a new sleeve is a piece of aluminum alloy tubing, in an outer diameter that will fit into whatever the guy who reams the old one out decides to achieve. Aluminum alloy tubing comes in all sorts of diameters, and wall thicknesses. You need a wall thickness that will allow the final finish reaming to achieve your seat post diameter objectives. Someone who works regularly in metal fabrication (like a machine shop) will doubtless have his own favorite sources. I buy the stuff either over at Blue Collar Supply, or for simple needs, there is a rack of it at the Home Depot.

Aluminum tubing and bar stock is hanging around all over the place. They even sell it online, if you know the dimensional specs for what you need. I think Grainger sells it, as well as the following:

https://www.lowes.com/pl/Aluminum--T...ent=4294965691
https://www.onlinemetals.com/en/buy/...dcf6214cd2877b
https://www.mcmaster.com/aluminum-tubing/
https://www.dovertubularalloys.com/p...m-pipe-tubing/

The big guys, like Dover, are not looking for small, one-off, retail customers. That's just an example to give you an idea of the vast array of sizes available. A professional metal working shop would have access to sources and selection that is denied to mere mortals like you and me.

My guesstimate is that the aluminum sleeve you have in there now is simply glued in place, with some kind of space age adhesive. That's all you'd need with a replacement. One of the advantages of consulting an actual machinist is that such a person would have a set of interior measuring gauges for tubing shapes, so you could get some idea of what's going on with the bore diameter for the length of the interior shim. (Which is, I think, what this is.)

FBinNY 

FWIW the OP is extremely unlikely to find tubing with a suitable OD. Bike tubes have standardized ODs. However the ID tends to be odd sized because the focus us on wall thickness, not ID.

So, the only easy source for the right liner is the frame builder who has them in stock. However it is possible that a frame tube supplier might have them to sell with tube sets.

Note that it's not necessary to replace the liner. It can be reamed to some uniform diameter, and the post fitted with a 4" tubular shim.

FBinNY 

Sorry to be "blaming the victim" here but you're showing ZERO INITIATIVE . Every suggestion is met with some sort of objection.

"Likely wouldn't" implies that you didn't even pick up a phone to ask.

Earlier you said there were no decent shops locally. I gave you some names, and you said you'll follow up later. That means you made zero effort to visit local shops of which thete are many, yet.

You say you don't think they have experience with Ti, implying that you didn't ask that either. And in any case not a single suggestion involves touching the Ti anyway.

You're rudely whining and wasting the time of people willing to help, while doing absolutely nothing to follow up.

It's your bike not ours, yet people here have put much more time into it than you're willing to.

There's plenty of water there, but if you're not willing to drink......

Steve_sr

Well, I am hoping that this isn't the case.


This is what I am hoping for. Please see the attached photos of the existing shim. It also looks very similar to the one in the Moots video linked above. Notice the machining of the lip around the top of the shim. It looks to be purpose made to go into standard 35mm O.D. titanium tube.

Take a look at the existing shim and you will notice that there is not much material left to "even out" the existing bore. And, yes, that dark area is a "****er" where the reamer grabbed and broke the through the existing shim. This seems to be a common occurrence as my LiteSpeed now with almost 92K miles on it has the same tear out issue down in the bore but is snug at the clamp. At first I thought that this might be a problem but not after all of these miles.

Were you intending that the additional sleeve be reamed to size? It is only going to be about .010" thick. I would think that the reamer would tear it to shreds.

FBinNY 

Hoping, and assuming won't solve your problems. You have to move in the real world and DO something.

Earlier, you seemed to be satisfied with a kludge "coke can" shim for the top.

Were it not for me badgering you to do it right, this thread would likely have ended there.

So, here's a plan.

1 - communicate with the builder and see if, in order of preference, he'll ----

a - GIVE you a replacement liner
b - SELL you a replacement liner
c - tell you the source where you might purchase a liner

Failing that, contact another ti frame builder and inquire about buying a liner from them, or their vendor.
You'd also need to double check that the tube has the same wall thickness.

Frankly, after all the BS, I'm amazed that you haven't already done any of that, especially since you now mention owning another ti frame with a similar liner.

IF and only IF, you try the above, and still cannot source a liner, plan B would be to fabricate a 4" tubular shim to make up the difference between 31.6 and a reamed bore of the existing liner. DO NOT ASSUME it cannot be done, I'm telling you (as an expert) it most assuredly can. The absolutely worst scenario here would be reaming out the existing liner and working with thicker shim stock.

The decisiom whether to skim cut the liner or ream it out entirely, depends on it's thickness, and how thick a shim would need to be.

FWIW the entire job involves less than one hour of labor. and you've already spent more than that seeking advice to ignore.

Steve_sr

I am going to be in the East Brunswick, NJ area over the holidays which is close to Trenton and Philly. Do you, by chance, know of any Ti frame builders in that area that I might visit?

Thanks,
Steve

FBinNY 

Yes, I know (or, more precisely knew) of a few. However, I just spent a few seconds doing a quick search for "ti frames near Philadelphia" and found a few.

I think that since it's your frame, you might do the same, then invest another few minutes on a phone call or two to see if they could or would help you.

FWIW if it weren't for the previous interactions on this thread, I probably would have made a call or two on your behalf, but there's limited water in this well.

Camilo

At the risk of beating a dead horse, if it was my new frame from a reputable frame maker, I would have spent a good portion of the time wasted on the give and take on this thread harranging the builder to make it right. I still (again ) cannot believe any good premium quality frame builder wouldn't bend over backwards to solve what appears to be a fairly simple (time and $ both) issue and make a good customer happy.

Kontact 

Didn't read the whole thread. Seat posts vary in diameter. Try a different seat post.

FBinNY 

Well, duh!!!!

However, if you took a moment to even skim this 100+ post thread, you'd have known how pointless your post was.

Kontact 

I skimmed enough to see your post where you informed the OP that the seatpost needs to be supported by a sleeve 5-6 inches into the seat tube. And that's wrong. Bikes with oversized seat tubes - like almost everything that isn't steel - have a reducer sleeve or lug that is often less than two inches long. So I have no idea why you'd suggest 5 to 6 inches - most of that shim wouldn't have anything surrounding it to touch. In fact- that's a bad idea because it can cause the shim to touch the inside of the seat tube under flex cause a tick. There is supposed to be clearance around the bottom of the seat post inside the seat tube.

This is all a seat post needs or gets in a TI frame:


Since you're talking out of butt about the topic, I don't know where you get off being rude to me.



Steve_sr Your frame should be warrantied. If you don't want to do that, use a shim. If that's unacceptable, get someone to ream out the aluminum shim and epoxy in a new one. Or order a custom seat post diameter from Thomson, if they still do that.

But 2 inches of beer can will fix the problem and not cause any stress because the post is only supposed to be supported for a short distance into the seat tube. As you can see in the above image.

FBinNY 

Nothing new here that wasn't said before. And since I explained why I suggested a much longer shim way back earlier in the thread, I won't waste time repeating it.

I will say that suggesting a 2 inch long shim for this specific frame demonstrates a lack of understanding of frame design fundamentals.

Kontact 

I will say that your lack of explanation suggests that you are still talking out of your butt. It is easy to imply that someone is wrong, much harder to actually state facts.

In this case, that glued in aluminum tube is one way Ti manufactures have been reducing the seat tube diameter since the late '80s. My Merlin and Basso (Litespeed) have glued in Ti sleeves, my Litespeed MTB uses aluminum. None of them go into the frame more than a few inches. Later on, Ti makers started using seat tube caps like the one I posted. It is thick walled and the seat tube sleeves around the bottom, then is fusion welded. The example in the picture is for a 31.6 post and is 2 3/8" tall. Subtract the internal taper at the bottom and you have 2" of seat post contact. And that's what you'll find in a Moots, for instance.

There is nothing about the construction of the OP's frame that makes the physics of clamping a seat post different from any other bike. You can certainly use longer shims - but I find they become increasingly difficult to insert straight the longer they are. Thick adapter shims are easy, but thin filler shims are a PITA. Either way, there just isn't a great deal of distance away from the actual clamping force where the shim or sleeve does anything - the pinch bolt is at the top. And the minimum insertion depth for the seatpost is like 3" - not 5".

Now you say something vague and dismissive with no reference to actual bikes.

Steve_sr

Well, here is an update... I finally received the last of the wrong/missing parts to make a rideable bike in January. This included a chain that was long enough and a better seatpost clamp. I also talked the builder into sending a replacement seatpost shim thinking that I would eventually change out the over reamed original shim. See photo.

replacement shim fits snugly.

So I actually went went for a couple of rides and overall the bike fit and rode well. Then I started to have unexplained knee pain problems. This is usually caused by a seat height issue. So I found that the seat had sunk into the frame. So, I reset the seatpost and put a piece of masking tape on the post where it entered the frame and went for a 30 mile ride. When I returned the tape it showed that the seatpost had sunk about 3/16". This was with a quality Wolf Tooth clamp tightened to the recommended 6nm torque.

We have about a dozen and a half +/- local bike shops in my metro area. I picked out about half a dozen most likely to be able to do this to contact to see if they could handle a replacement. None had ever done anything like this and obviously didn't have the required adjustable reamer.

So it looks like I have a $7K wall hanger until I can figure out how to get this shim replaced.

The first obstacle is how to remove the existing epoxied-in shim without damaging the frame? Anybody ever done this and have any tips?

Thanks,
Steve

Yan 

Yeah, good luck with that. Never going to happen outside of specialized shop. And why is this your responsibility? Why is the frame builder not un******** his own f*uck-up?

Your situation is a total sh*t show. A $7000 custom frame should not come with such an amateur mistake. I would expect perfection on any custom frame, let alone your frame which is double the cost of most other custom frames. Is he a new builder, first week on the job?

The frame is defective and should be returned. It is the builder's responsibility to deliver a non-defective product after accepting payment. It is not the customer's responsibility to work out a half assed band-aid solution to make a defective frame ridable. If the builder is unwilling to accept a return, I'd be filing a credit card chargeback. Unfortunately it looks like you have wasted too much time and have now exceeded the typical 120 day time limit for credit card disputes.

You were way too nice with this guy. If this had been my frame, I would have returned it immediately for a full refund and moved on to a different builder. No way I'd ride a frame from this guy. A back of the class kid is not going to ace an exam no matter how many times you let him retake it. Who knows what else he messed up, including on the geometry.

Which builder is this??? You have more leverage than you think. You can trash his reputation online until his incompetence is so associated with his name in Google that any time someone looks him up, your complaint comes up with his name. At that point he will go out of business because nobody is going to spend $7000 on a frame from a questionable builder.

FBinNY 

This is almost too simple to explain. Use either a correctly sized machine reamer or one of the adjustable reamers most bike shops already have.

Assuming the ID and OD o DC the shim are concentric, the reamer will follow the ID as a guide and remove the shim without more than a trace of frame tube wall. Even if things are not perfect, the principle of differential cutting will cause the reamer to "prefer" removing aluminum shim to cutting into the frame.

The key is to not use a super sharp (brand new) reamer, and allowing it to follow it's own path of least resistance.

FBinNY 

You're out of line here. People come to this forum for practical help, not lectures.

In any case, all the issues you raise were discussed ad nauseum long ago. Now, after months the OP is ready to move on, and has what needs to do so.

In any case the past is past. So rather than pile on more BS, we should focus on where to go from here.

Kontact 

Yan's tone is not great, but I agree with his sentiment. There is no reason to accept a non-working bicycle. US made Ti frames from a top grade maker like Kish cost less than $4000, so a $7000 frame should be perfect, or at least perfectly supported.

There are two ways of looking at this:
1. The bike is in spec, and if the post isn't working than there is a post problem.
2. The bike out of spec and the maker should pay. They can pay by fixing the bike or by losing reputation.


Either way, if the frame is that expensive, stop screwing around with local shops and send it to a specialty house that can fix it properly.


Steve_sr , Jim Kish is a great Ti framebuilder in Carrboro North Carolina. Maybe he can help.

BTW, I was witness to a really screwed up Ti frame from one of the biggest Colorado brands around. Same claim: "in spec". Wonder if it's the same?

FBinNY 

For the record, so do (or did) I.

This thread was started 6 months ago, and there were plenty of posts relating to getting the builder to do by him.

But now after a long hiatus, the OP has come to some sort of resolution with the builder, and is looking to move on.

So, IMO, it makes no sense to beat the "builder sucks" dead horse. Moreover, the OP doesn't need his nose rubbed in it.

Steve_sr

For the record the frame and build kit was about $6K and add $1K for the wheels which I sourced from somewhere else.

Unfortunately, I only learned of Kish after I was already into this process. He decided to shut down his operation during the pandemic because he could not get the components to actually complete building a bike. No revenue if you can't sell a complete bike.

I did contact him about the seatpost issue and managed to get a single reply that shim replacement may be easy or difficult. He also stated that he moved out of the area and back to California.

Probably not. This was a smaller 2-family owned business with a good reputation and been in business for many years. About the time of my order one of the families wanted "out" and so the remaining family had to effectively sell out to bring in capital to pay off the first. The new owner was a "real estate novelist" with a bike fetish. Unfortunately he also brought a caustic personality that didn't go well with the existing team so most left or were eventually fired. The new GM who is much better to deal with has a background as a small steel frame builder.