fearing the slow good bye to rim brake bikes
#301
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Thinking about it a little, I don't think people are being bamboozled. Instead, I think there's a synergy between the marketers' need to push new things and the public's insatiable desire for something new. What comes after this synergy is a list new "scientific," "objective" reasons why the new thing is "better." So what drives what? It seems to me that all the rationales for a new product are created afterward to justify our thirst for a new toy. And the marketers are happy to help come up with these rationales.
I don't want to argue with anyone's choice of products. I just think it's silly to invent objective reasons why, for example, electronic shifting is objectively better than downtube friction shifters. The reasons why one rider would choose the former are not important for another rider who chooses the latter.
I don't want to argue with anyone's choice of products. I just think it's silly to invent objective reasons why, for example, electronic shifting is objectively better than downtube friction shifters. The reasons why one rider would choose the former are not important for another rider who chooses the latter.
Scientists and engineers are employed to develop future products that are generally better than the present ones. Competition between manufacturers drives this constant need to improve. It's actually pretty rare for technology to regress, despite the odd hiccup along the way (PF BBs?)
Here is a TDF bike from the mid 1920s
1950s
1980s
2000
2010
2021
Putting aside any personal vintage nostalgia, is it not blindingly obvious to you that these bikes keep improving as time marches forward? It's genuine evolution, not just marketing of any random "new" stuff. Had I not listed the dates above, it wouldn't be very difficult to put them in the correct chronological order.
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Have you really not noticed how science and technology evolves and advances over time?
Scientists and engineers are employed to develop future products that are generally better than the present ones. Competition between manufacturers drives this constant need to improve. It's actually pretty rare for technology to regress, despite the odd hiccup along the way (PF BBs?)
Here is a TDF bike from the mid 1920s
1950s
1980s
2000
2010
2021
Putting aside any personal vintage nostalgia, is it not blindingly obvious to you that these bikes keep improving as time marches forward? It's genuine evolution, not just marketing of any random "new" stuff. Had I not listed the dates above, it wouldn't be very difficult to put them in the correct chronological order.
Scientists and engineers are employed to develop future products that are generally better than the present ones. Competition between manufacturers drives this constant need to improve. It's actually pretty rare for technology to regress, despite the odd hiccup along the way (PF BBs?)
Here is a TDF bike from the mid 1920s
1950s
1980s
2000
2010
2021
Putting aside any personal vintage nostalgia, is it not blindingly obvious to you that these bikes keep improving as time marches forward? It's genuine evolution, not just marketing of any random "new" stuff. Had I not listed the dates above, it wouldn't be very difficult to put them in the correct chronological order.
#303
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If I had the choice to own an F4U1-D Corsair or an F/A-18, I know what I’d choose. Modern features not withstanding, I’d much rather run our 1941 steam locomotive than the diesel. Some of man’s inventions are timeless.
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Thanks for the interesting post it is great to see it laid out like that. The interesting question would be which bike would you pick for your personal ride. I have actually owned a TI Raleigh as shown as well as 2010 7900 Dura Ace Tarmac and although I may have a nostalgic attachment my current S Works Roubaix is just an all around better bike.
#305
bocobiking
Have you really not noticed how science and technology evolves and advances over time?
Scientists and engineers are employed to develop future products that are generally better than the present ones. Competition between manufacturers drives this constant need to improve. It's actually pretty rare for technology to regress, despite the odd hiccup along the way (PF BBs?)
Here is a TDF bike from the mid 1920s
1950s
1980s
2000
2010
2021
Putting aside any personal vintage nostalgia, is it not blindingly obvious to you that these bikes keep improving as time marches forward? It's genuine evolution, not just marketing of any random "new" stuff. Had I not listed the dates above, it wouldn't be very difficult to put them in the correct chronological order.
Scientists and engineers are employed to develop future products that are generally better than the present ones. Competition between manufacturers drives this constant need to improve. It's actually pretty rare for technology to regress, despite the odd hiccup along the way (PF BBs?)
Here is a TDF bike from the mid 1920s
1950s
1980s
2000
2010
2021
Putting aside any personal vintage nostalgia, is it not blindingly obvious to you that these bikes keep improving as time marches forward? It's genuine evolution, not just marketing of any random "new" stuff. Had I not listed the dates above, it wouldn't be very difficult to put them in the correct chronological order.
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The Mona Lisa was painted with obsolete paint, brushes, and techniques. Every aspect of oil painting is hyper-technically advanced today compared to when the Mona Lisa was painted. Far greater realism can be obtained today with computers.
Which is considered fine art, a cultural icon and priceless?
Which is considered fine art, a cultural icon and priceless?
Last edited by smd4; 06-21-22 at 07:30 PM.
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b) Realism isn't always the goal of art, nor the criterion for greatness.
c) Priceless fine art icons often aren't recognized as such for decades or even centuries.
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The composition of the oil paint and the construction of the brushes is FAR different today. The “technology” is different.
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Does cxwrench even know what a
choke is? Never mind. He can Google it and answer maybe intelligently.
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My 504 does have a manual choke, too. It had been disabled by the previous owner at some point using the old tie-the-flaps-open-with-a-piece-of-wire trick, but I've already taken care of that - albeit I never needed to use it thanks to the warm weather around where I live.
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Science can and does make changes in technology. But what science cannot do is create an objective value for these changes. Creating value is the domain of each individual human; value is subjective; what constitutes progress is subjective. There is no telling how a particular individual will experience these pictures; there is no telling what that individual wants in his cycling experience. The latest carbon fiber is not objectively better than a 1974 Schwinn Paramount.
The Mona Lisa was painted with obsolete paint, brushes, and techniques. Every aspect of oil painting is hyper-technically advanced today compared to when the Mona Lisa was painted. Far greater realism can be obtained today with computers.
Which is considered fine art, a cultural icon and priceless?
Which is considered fine art, a cultural icon and priceless?
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I seriously doubt that - not when the likes of LDC, Bullseye, Bombshell, and Speedline (not to mention Paul) are still committed to making really nice (and very expensive) V-brakes and make them in America, and not when the Chinese are there to knock them off with decent quality at a fraction of the price.
Last edited by sjanzeir; 06-21-22 at 09:34 PM.
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The Mona Lisa was painted with obsolete paint, brushes, and techniques. Every aspect of oil painting is hyper-technically advanced today compared to when the Mona Lisa was painted. Far greater realism can be obtained today with computers.
Which is considered fine art, a cultural icon and priceless?
Which is considered fine art, a cultural icon and priceless?
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Science can and does make changes in technology. But what science cannot do is create an objective value for these changes. Creating value is the domain of each individual human; value is subjective; what constitutes progress is subjective. There is no telling how a particular individual will experience these pictures; there is no telling what that individual wants in his cycling experience. The latest carbon fiber is not objectively better than a 1974 Schwinn Paramount.
Disc brakes in general simply function better than rim brakes and that's why rim brakes are becoming obsolete. It has nothing to do with "Big bike" marketing. It's just simple engineering evolution.
So what comes after disc brakes in this evolutionary process? Is there a known wheel braking mechanism inherently better than the hydraulic disc brake and caliper? Based on what we see in the automotive industry, I would say not at this point. Certainly not in mainstream production anyway.
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Anyway, here we are. Are disc brakes better? Yes. Are they worth the tradeoffs? Yes, no, maybe. I do think disc brakes and the TL tire wave has brought more $ to the industry -- not just the makers who at the very least had a windfall benefit of having a more visibly different product that could incentivize upgrading, but also the shops -- more maintenance that isn't as easily done at home.
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I did say modulation is more important for some than others. I run mostly cantilever brakes and I notice a big difference even between different makes/models, or even how I have them set up. That's one of the reasons I love cantis - because I can dial them in the way I like them. Minor changes to the straddle cable make a big difference in modulation - the ability to go from lightly feathering the brakes (just a light whisper of brake pads touching the rims) to full-on panic stop. The range between those two is what we're talking about - how wide is that range?
Also, we're not talking about lever travel - we're talking about force applied to the lever, the controlling force.
#323
bocobiking
If that were true then bicycle (and any other technical product) development would be a lot more random than it actually is. Individuals of a certain age might well have a sentimental preference for products of a specific era, but the newer products are objectively better. From a nostalgic point of view I do "value" iconic bikes from the 1970s an 80s (TI Raleigh for example), but I'm not going to pretend their outdated tech is on a par with their modern equivalents. Some people seem to live in denial when it comes to technological progress.
Disc brakes in general simply function better than rim brakes and that's why rim brakes are becoming obsolete. It has nothing to do with "Big bike" marketing. It's just simple engineering evolution.
So what comes after disc brakes in this evolutionary process? Is there a known wheel braking mechanism inherently better than the hydraulic disc brake and caliper? Based on what we see in the automotive industry, I would say not at this point. Certainly not in mainstream production anyway.
Disc brakes in general simply function better than rim brakes and that's why rim brakes are becoming obsolete. It has nothing to do with "Big bike" marketing. It's just simple engineering evolution.
So what comes after disc brakes in this evolutionary process? Is there a known wheel braking mechanism inherently better than the hydraulic disc brake and caliper? Based on what we see in the automotive industry, I would say not at this point. Certainly not in mainstream production anyway.
"the notion of scientific truth, at any given moment, cannot be established solely by objective criteria but is defined by a consensus of a scientific community. Competing paradigms are frequently incommensurable; that is, they are competing and irreconcilable accounts of reality. Thus, our comprehension of science can never rely wholly upon "objectivity" alone. Science must account for subjective perspectives as well, since all objective conclusions are ultimately founded upon the subjective conditioning/worldview of its researchers and participants."
So our idea of what is objectively valuable is occasioned by our, subjective, world view. I think I would argue that our world view includes the idea that change is progress, that complexity is better than simplicity, that world history is a linear road of everything getting better. These are subjective notions that seem like objective truth to those steeped in our world view.
In the world of cycling, the latest invention is the e-bike. Is that objective progress that everyone should now embrace, just like disc brakes? What if they invent a way to shift gears with a simple mental act with no physical movement; would that be objective progress with all previous gear-shifting mechanisms relegated to the category of nostalgia? To claim that the latest invention is objectively better seems like a rhetorical way to impose one's values on everyone else. To say that everyone else is motivated merely by nostalgia is patronizing.
#324
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Yeah, but saying something like, oh, I don't know, maybe "it seems to me that all the rationales for a new product are created afterward to justify our thirst for a new toy," isn't patronizing at all.