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fearing the slow good bye to rim brake bikes

Old 06-20-22, 02:01 PM
  #251  
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
My response was only directed to your statement that disc brakes "are superior in every way." They are not superior in lightness.
They add about 300 grams. And when everyone in TDF or other bike races is using disc brake bikes, that puts everyone on the same playing field.
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Old 06-20-22, 02:09 PM
  #252  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese View Post
In "every way"? That's obviously not true. Perhaps a little perspective would help. Here's a couple articles to get you started.

From this article (and supported by other opinions as well) - "And yet, on a bike optimized for performance, rim brakes often remain the better choice."
Myths Debunked: Disc Brakes DON’T Always Work Better Than Rim Brakes

Here's another good read.
Disc Brakes Vs Rim Brakes: A Pros and Cons List
Those are nice articles and what not, but just know that all of major bike manufacturers will be offering nothing but disc brakes on their road bikes soon. Go look at Trek, Specialized, Giant...95% of their bikes are disc brakes.
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Old 06-20-22, 02:14 PM
  #253  
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There are a couple really good cable disk brake calipers out there (yes I know the hydraulic folks are going to argue) but the problem really isn't disc v. rim is hydraulic v. cable.

==edit==
I think most of the arguments here could also be made with square taper v. external bearing BB's

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Old 06-20-22, 04:00 PM
  #254  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Those are nice articles and what not, but just know that all of major bike manufacturers will be offering nothing but disc brakes on their road bikes soon. Go look at Trek, Specialized, Giant...95% of their bikes are disc brakes.
I've heard that at Shimano, all research on rim brake technology was halted at least a year or two ago.
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Old 06-20-22, 04:18 PM
  #255  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Those are nice articles and what not, but just know that all of major bike manufacturers will be offering nothing but disc brakes on their road bikes soon. Go look at Trek, Specialized, Giant...95% of their bikes are disc brakes.
Yep, until everyone owns disc brakes. Then they will need to invent the next big thing to keep the profits rolling. Or, maybe rim brakes will again be touted. Just as long as everybody will need to buy a whole new bike.
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Old 06-20-22, 04:41 PM
  #256  
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Originally Posted by bocobiking View Post
Yep, until everyone owns disc brakes. Then they will need to invent the next big thing to keep the profits rolling. Or, maybe rim brakes will again be touted. Just as long as everybody will need to buy a whole new bike.
A lot of us had forgotten that disc brakes are just a Big Bike conspiracy. Thanks for reminding us!
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Old 06-20-22, 08:30 PM
  #257  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
A lot of us had forgotten that disc brakes are just a Big Bike conspiracy. Thanks for reminding us!
Disc brakes are a Big Bike conspiracy to sell bikes with better brakes.
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Old 06-20-22, 08:52 PM
  #258  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Disc brakes are a Big Bike conspiracy to sell bikes with better brakes.
Selling bikes is a conspiracy to kill the automotive industry which in turn is a conspiracy to kill the gasoline industry which in turn is a conspiracy to kill air pollution which is a conspiracy to reduce childhood asthma. Any questions?
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Old 06-20-22, 08:58 PM
  #259  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Those are nice articles and what not, but just know that all of major bike manufacturers will be offering nothing but disc brakes on their road bikes soon. Go look at Trek, Specialized, Giant...95% of their bikes are disc brakes.
Of course most of their bikes are disc brakes - they big three have been marketing the hell out them for years. How do you get people to buy a new bicycle when they have a perfectly good one already? Convince them that something is "new and better". Marketing 101.
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Old 06-20-22, 09:09 PM
  #260  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Are you thinking that you won't be able to get appropriate pads, cables and rims in the future?
Well, there's always Aliexpress...
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Old 06-20-22, 09:21 PM
  #261  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese View Post
Of course most of their bikes are disc brakes - they big three have been marketing the hell out them for years. How do you get people to buy a new bicycle when they have a perfectly good one already? Convince them that something is "new and better". Marketing 101.
How do you know you are not a victim of the grand rim brake conspiracy? Everyone was perfectly happy with their rod brakes and coaster brakes. Then big bike executives took Marketing 101 as part of their VA education grant post WW2 and unleashed rim brakes on the unsuspecting innocent masses.

In fact we need to band together and stand up to this never ending progress and greed. Let’s abandon all brakes and begin dragging our shoes on the ground as was initially intended.

Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 06-20-22 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 06-20-22, 09:24 PM
  #262  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged View Post
How do you know you are not a victim of the grand rim brake conspiracy? Everyone was perfectly happy with their rod brakes and coaster brakes until big bike executives took Marketing 101 as part of their VA education grant after WW2.
All anyone ever needed was Ashtabula cranks and a band brake on the rear wheel. There was absolutely nothing wrong with walking the bike up and down a hill.
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Old 06-20-22, 09:29 PM
  #263  
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262 posts on this topic, wow! Lamenting something that will never happen.
Tim
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Old 06-20-22, 10:36 PM
  #264  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese View Post
Of course most of their bikes are disc brakes - they big three have been marketing the hell out them for years. How do you get people to buy a new bicycle when they have a perfectly good one already? Convince them that something is "new and better". Marketing 101.
Marketing 101:
The ultimate goal of a marketing strategy is to achieve and communicate a sustainable competitive advantage over rival companies by understanding the needs and wants of its consumers.
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Old 06-20-22, 10:40 PM
  #265  
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by understanding the needs and wants of its consumers.
By telling them what it is that they don't know they need and that that's what they ought to be wanting to have.
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Old 06-20-22, 10:53 PM
  #266  
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir View Post
By telling them what it is that they don't know they need and that that's what they ought to be wanting to have.
It's remarkable how everyone that likes disc brakes has been bamboozled by the bicycling manufacturers, but those rim brake guys are all immune to the siren's call.
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Old 06-20-22, 11:03 PM
  #267  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
It's remarkable how everyone that likes disc brakes has been bamboozled by the bicycling manufacturers, but those rim brake guys are all immune to the siren's call.
Just one of my five bikes (a folding bike, of all things) has disk brakes. And the one with the disk brakes used to be the worst one for stopping power until I upgraded that one with hydraulic binders. All of my rim brake bikes - including an early-1990s, entry-level, gas-pipe roadie that I recently hybridized - can stop on a dime. Only one of those rim-brake bikes I felt a need to upgrade with better rim brakes, and it wasn't because it lacked raw stopping power.
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Old 06-20-22, 11:12 PM
  #268  
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir View Post
Just one of my five bikes (a folding bike, of all things) has disk brakes. And the one with the disk brakes used to be the worst one for stopping power until I upgraded that one with hydraulic binders. All of my rim brake bikes - including an early-1990s, entry-level, gas-pipe roadie that I recently hybridized - can stop on a dime. Only one of those rim-brake bikes I felt a need to upgrade with better rim brakes, and it wasn't because it lacked raw stopping power.
Yeah, that doesn't really interest me, because Big Bike said I shouldn't listen to people that aren't on board with their marketing pitch. They also said that whenever someone buys a set of rim brakes, a kitten dies.
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Old 06-20-22, 11:27 PM
  #269  
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We should all be riding coaster brakes and not rim or discs. So let the debate stop.

There are a couple of minor issues with coaster brakes though. First if you drop the chain, you have no brake. Second, on very long descents, they can overheat and possibly fail. Have not read about spontaneous combustion though. Coaster brakes do wear and require periodic servicing as well as suffer, just like all brakes, from fade when used on long descents. And one other thing, they take longer to stop since they only slow the rear wheel. But other than that, they are wonderful and will be the next big thing, again. Maybe.
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Old 06-20-22, 11:43 PM
  #270  
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Originally Posted by rsbob View Post
We should all be riding coaster brakes and not rim or discs. So let the debate stop.

There are a couple of minor issues with coaster brakes though. First if you drop the chain, you have no brake. Second, on very long descents, they can overheat and possibly fail. Have not read about spontaneous combustion though. Coaster brakes do wear and require periodic servicing as well as suffer, just like all brakes, from fade when used on long descents. And one other thing, they take longer to stop since they only slow the rear wheel. But other than that, they are wonderful and will be the next big thing, again. Maybe.
Those issues are indeed minor, but the major issue with the coaster brake is that it employs the metal-on-metal friction method, which is not only unnecessarily complex, but also inefficient. Everyone knows that the best braking method is the common-sense, scientifically proven, tried-and-trusted shoe-sole-on-tire-tread friction method. Not only is it effective, but it also is simple and fool-proof.
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Old 06-21-22, 05:28 AM
  #271  
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Originally Posted by tkamd73 View Post
262 posts on this topic, wow! Lamenting something that will never happen.
Tim
Oh, Tim…now that’s not really fair…at least 50 of those posts were on the related topic of steam locomotives and their explosive power, particularly if t-boned by a potato truck….
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Old 06-21-22, 05:32 AM
  #272  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese View Post
In "every way"? That's obviously not true. Perhaps a little perspective would help. Here's a couple articles to get you started.

From this article (and supported by other opinions as well) - "And yet, on a bike optimized for performance, rim brakes often remain the better choice."
Myths Debunked: Disc Brakes DON’T Always Work Better Than Rim Brakes

Here's another good read.
Disc Brakes Vs Rim Brakes: A Pros and Cons List
Disc vs Rim will be a debate that continues until all us oldies who have ridden mostly rim are long gone.

Thing is, there really is no debate when it comes to which stops sooner and which is faster for racing bikes - there is a clear winner overall.

I read the second link and I wouldn't disagree with any of it. I really enjoy riding my rim-braked Wilier and plan on keeping it forever and it benefits from all the good stuff highlighted in the article.

However, my disc-braked bike's stopping power outweighs all the negatives vs rim and so I'm equally happy to see that tech become the norm, which it is doing. Overall, I much prefer discs now albeit I still ride rim too.

Naturally, the argument that a good, optimised rim brake is better than a cheap mech disc should go without say but anything from, say, Shimano 105 up and comparable on road bikes, for example, will stop better than high-end rim - I know, first hand, don't need to read any theoretical articles about it and so does anyone who regularly rides good-quality in both.

The two biggest drawbacks for disc in my own personal use are the need for greater maintenance - disc's are far more prone to rub due to tighter tolerances and therefore tiny amounts of grit can cause issues - and added weight.

Both of these sound problematic but aren't really. The maintenance issue is actually really easy; I can remove the pads and have them and the discs cleaned and replaced pretty quickly. The extra weight is no problem either: you can get 6.1kg road bikes with discs if you are a true weight-weenie. The Trek Emonda is 6.8kg and many other Pro level bikes are sub-7kg. Light enough. Obviously, aero bikes and less costly bikes are heavier but then, they always have been. The point is, weight reductions elsewhere on the bike have made the added disc weight less of an issue.

Rim brakes have decent stopping power, we have used them for decades, but anyone who still thinks they are as good as discs must ride very slowly. Which, is fine, for slow recreational cruising the differences will be far less noticeable than higher speed stuff. But, if you are someone who rides quickly, then discs are hands-down winners. And that's a tried and tested fact.

Just this morning I rode down a 7km climb at over 55km/h average, hitting over 80km/h in places. I was on my rim bike and being very wary on the S-bends and, ultimately, a lot slower than I would have been on my disc-braked bike where it instils much more confidence, brakes sharper etc and allows me to brake later and less. But again, this is at speed. I get that cyclists who just pootle about won't see the same degree of difference. The Market will cater for those who do want to go faster, however.






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Old 06-21-22, 07:38 AM
  #273  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese View Post
Of course most of their bikes are disc brakes - they big three have been marketing the hell out them for years. How do you get people to buy a new bicycle when they have a perfectly good one already? Convince them that something is "new and better". Marketing 101.
Having grown up riding bikes in the 80's...There is nothing that would want to make me go back to riding bikes with rim brakes. When something is better, the companies don't need to convince anyone. They sell themselves once you use them.
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Old 06-21-22, 07:54 AM
  #274  
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Originally Posted by tkamd73 View Post
262 posts on this topic, wow! Lamenting something that will never happen.
Tim
There is a promising “Steel is Real” thread starting over in road cycling so as this one starts to thread down so to speak the Luddites will have a place to go.

https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...our-frame.html
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Old 06-21-22, 08:01 AM
  #275  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
It's remarkable how everyone that likes disc brakes has been bamboozled by the bicycling manufacturers, but those rim brake guys are all immune to the siren's call.
Thinking about it a little, I don't think people are being bamboozled. Instead, I think there's a synergy between the marketers' need to push new things and the public's insatiable desire for something new. What comes after this synergy is a list new "scientific," "objective" reasons why the new thing is "better." So what drives what? It seems to me that all the rationales for a new product are created afterward to justify our thirst for a new toy. And the marketers are happy to help come up with these rationales.

I don't want to argue with anyone's choice of products. I just think it's silly to invent objective reasons why, for example, electronic shifting is objectively better than downtube friction shifters. The reasons why one rider would choose the former are not important for another rider who chooses the latter.
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