A lot of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitiv
#951
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timtak
No matter how may times you repeat the claim that an aero position is better for losing weight or getting in shape, it still won’t be true.
No matter how may times you repeat the claim that an aero position is better for losing weight or getting in shape, it still won’t be true.
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#952
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To summarize this thread in a word…
e-bikes.
Since I’m retired I am amazed at how many people ride e-bikes, even kids on the same roads our kids rode.
It answers all the questions, it is recent innovation that is a good bargain for those who are non-competitive, it negates disadvantages with the number of gears, and it overcomes any aero disadvantages. You can set the assist to get as little or as much of a workout you want.
It is the direction that seems to be fastest growing element and it appears to be embraced by all generations, especially the younger riders.
Eventually it will render all other opinions moot. Just a matter of time.
John
e-bikes.
Since I’m retired I am amazed at how many people ride e-bikes, even kids on the same roads our kids rode.
It answers all the questions, it is recent innovation that is a good bargain for those who are non-competitive, it negates disadvantages with the number of gears, and it overcomes any aero disadvantages. You can set the assist to get as little or as much of a workout you want.
It is the direction that seems to be fastest growing element and it appears to be embraced by all generations, especially the younger riders.
Eventually it will render all other opinions moot. Just a matter of time.
John
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#953
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Wind resistance is very different, and wind resistance is that which road bike riders are putting in effort to overcome, so yes, riders will go "a bit" (or several times) faster/further in a group, such as a pro peloton where, according to one paper the wind resistance is about 20% that of a solo rider, as I keep quoting. This very large difference between group and solo riding could/might/should (? you pick. My pick is should) result in a large difference in riding style.
I agree. My comments are addressed to road bike riders.
I agree entirely, and sugest that folks don't ride in this "comfortable" position because it does not result in a good work out and because the "non-comfortable" position is in fact quite comfortable if your belly and knees do not overlap.
I am just out to remain BMI 21 or so. Not to break records or race.
Largely agreed. I think that the only thing about Robbie is that he doesn't have the belly that a lot of us (including myself in the past and nacently now) have. Now that approaching (by 2030) 50% of people are obese in the USA that becomes the new (60 years ago) normal, that "most riders can't" do.
I generally ride only (?) 1 hour at a time and once a week at most 2 - 2.5 hours at a time. I am not sure what the average amateur ride length is but it may be only (?) about one hour at a time. I am not sure whether or not "elite" riders who ride 32 to 4 plus hours will be interested in Robbie's style or not, but recreational cyclists that want to get or remain non-overweight may, in my humble experience be interested.
I ride about one hour at a time on my own. I rarely see people riding in groups. I see other people riding alone every day. I think riders "should" ride the ride that they are riding and this, in cases where they want to ride fast, hard, energetically, resembles -- most out of the pro race styles -- a time trial.
My ambitions with cycling are to try to be not overweight. I have as you say limited ambitions with cycling in terms of winning races. I guess that quite a few bike purchasers, and recreational road cyclists, have a similar ambition to me but I may be wrong. I don't see why you think that your ambitions are more representative of the recreational rider than mine.
I agree that pros would not be interested because they ride in groups, or in cordoned off roads.
Thank you for the Pope quote.
I am not sure why so many people keep responding to this "crashing bore," but if people do I will respond.
I was thinking of taking a video of me riding along in a low position not looking uncomfortable but other than speak of my experience as is common, I am not sure
what kind of data do others provide or would you like me to provide.
I have often addressed aerodynamics.
This is the biggest issue I think. I am not saying that comfort is evil but when it is overemphasised it leads to ill health. I like to be comfortable but when Robbie's riding sytle is said to be uncomfortable and that grand-fondo/ endurance/ entry level road bikes are offered to people who'd be fine in Robbies positon, then I take issue.
I don't think that anyone has an objective of making anyone fat.
I think that economics encourages the sale of things that suit the person as they are at the time of sale rather than that which they aspire to be. The availability of products that allow people such as me and people of all shapes and sises, to cycle are, of course, very helpful. At the same time, the normalisation of styles of riding (trousers, running, shoes) that facilitate overweight might (I argue may, or should) profitably be avoided.
Entirely true.
Thank you for your contribution to society.
Mr. Cobb, and many many other bike and bike equipment sellers, are not aiming to sell UCI branded bikes. I have had really good experiences with some of them.
"Conspiracy" suggests that there are a bunch of nasty guys sitting around a table plotting the downfall of the biker. I don't think that is the case at all. At the same time imho there are economic reasons for the promotion and proliferation of pro sponsoring bikes. And attention to the race formats that pros ride may inform purchasers when to be wary of the "the pros ride the best bike type" rhetoric.
I have not heard that adage till now but I am okay with people thinking me a fool.
I think you are right about the tendency of professors to think they know too much. I try to bear that in mind.
At least once in the past that when someone asks for a thread to be shut down, it has been shut down, though, I don't think that the internet is likely to run out of space.
In any event, I remain grateful
m(._.)m
Tim
I agree. My comments are addressed to road bike riders.
I agree entirely, and sugest that folks don't ride in this "comfortable" position because it does not result in a good work out and because the "non-comfortable" position is in fact quite comfortable if your belly and knees do not overlap.
I am just out to remain BMI 21 or so. Not to break records or race.
Largely agreed. I think that the only thing about Robbie is that he doesn't have the belly that a lot of us (including myself in the past and nacently now) have. Now that approaching (by 2030) 50% of people are obese in the USA that becomes the new (60 years ago) normal, that "most riders can't" do.
I generally ride only (?) 1 hour at a time and once a week at most 2 - 2.5 hours at a time. I am not sure what the average amateur ride length is but it may be only (?) about one hour at a time. I am not sure whether or not "elite" riders who ride 32 to 4 plus hours will be interested in Robbie's style or not, but recreational cyclists that want to get or remain non-overweight may, in my humble experience be interested.
I ride about one hour at a time on my own. I rarely see people riding in groups. I see other people riding alone every day. I think riders "should" ride the ride that they are riding and this, in cases where they want to ride fast, hard, energetically, resembles -- most out of the pro race styles -- a time trial.
My ambitions with cycling are to try to be not overweight. I have as you say limited ambitions with cycling in terms of winning races. I guess that quite a few bike purchasers, and recreational road cyclists, have a similar ambition to me but I may be wrong. I don't see why you think that your ambitions are more representative of the recreational rider than mine.
I agree that pros would not be interested because they ride in groups, or in cordoned off roads.
Thank you for the Pope quote.
I am not sure why so many people keep responding to this "crashing bore," but if people do I will respond.
I was thinking of taking a video of me riding along in a low position not looking uncomfortable but other than speak of my experience as is common, I am not sure
what kind of data do others provide or would you like me to provide.
I have often addressed aerodynamics.
This is the biggest issue I think. I am not saying that comfort is evil but when it is overemphasised it leads to ill health. I like to be comfortable but when Robbie's riding sytle is said to be uncomfortable and that grand-fondo/ endurance/ entry level road bikes are offered to people who'd be fine in Robbies positon, then I take issue.
I don't think that anyone has an objective of making anyone fat.
I think that economics encourages the sale of things that suit the person as they are at the time of sale rather than that which they aspire to be. The availability of products that allow people such as me and people of all shapes and sises, to cycle are, of course, very helpful. At the same time, the normalisation of styles of riding (trousers, running, shoes) that facilitate overweight might (I argue may, or should) profitably be avoided.
Entirely true.
Thank you for your contribution to society.
Mr. Cobb, and many many other bike and bike equipment sellers, are not aiming to sell UCI branded bikes. I have had really good experiences with some of them.
"Conspiracy" suggests that there are a bunch of nasty guys sitting around a table plotting the downfall of the biker. I don't think that is the case at all. At the same time imho there are economic reasons for the promotion and proliferation of pro sponsoring bikes. And attention to the race formats that pros ride may inform purchasers when to be wary of the "the pros ride the best bike type" rhetoric.
I have not heard that adage till now but I am okay with people thinking me a fool.
I think you are right about the tendency of professors to think they know too much. I try to bear that in mind.
At least once in the past that when someone asks for a thread to be shut down, it has been shut down, though, I don't think that the internet is likely to run out of space.
In any event, I remain grateful
m(._.)m
Tim
That aside, you ought not attribute someone's words (mine, in this case) to another (@Herzlos, in this case) when responding to those words.
That is all; carry on.
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#954
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I don't know about anyone else here but, after reading timtak 's nonsense I'm less inspired to ride than ever. I mean, if choosing my normal bike instead of a ridiculous cobbled, fake TT machine to replace a standard car trip is going to make me fat, then I'm just going to take the car instead.
I'm driving the errands, today.
Thanks, timtak !
I'm driving the errands, today.
Thanks, timtak !
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I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
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Car dependency is a tax.
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#957
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The stubborn insistence that his experience and his particular motivations are common to all cyclists is a lot like another poster, but at least that other poster invariably manages to overgeneralize in one or two sentences.
I love the idea that only elite cyclists ride 3-4 hours at a time. My midweek rides are 1 1/2 hours, and the weekend rides are 3 1/2 - 4 1/2 hours, and I'm 7 years older and a good deal heavier than Timtak here. I think my rides are probably typical of a lot of the folks here - there's a mix of climbs, flats, rollers, descents, etc, and so my position varies from bar tops all the way to bent elbows in the drops, but always appropriate to the gradient and my speed. I can get my torso reasonably close to level and pound along on slight descents and flat, straight segments, but over time it becomes uncomfortable, and when the road tilts up, the aero benefits dwindle while the ability to breathe and put down power increases, so I sit up because I can go faster and more comfortably that way. My bikes are all set up to allow me to do this comfortably.
Here's a pic of what is currently my favorite ride. The frame size is 59cm. Saddle height is about 78cm, and I run about 9 cm of saddle to bar drop. Saddle setback (nose to BB center) is about 4.5 cm - short thighs for the length of leg. I can ride this all day, the drops are usable for pedaling several miles at a stretch. Since this pic was taken, the levers have been moved forward a couple degrees on the bars, so they're closer to level. And the saddle is about 5mm higher.
And yeah, I DID sneak another opportunity to post the Litespeed.
I love the idea that only elite cyclists ride 3-4 hours at a time. My midweek rides are 1 1/2 hours, and the weekend rides are 3 1/2 - 4 1/2 hours, and I'm 7 years older and a good deal heavier than Timtak here. I think my rides are probably typical of a lot of the folks here - there's a mix of climbs, flats, rollers, descents, etc, and so my position varies from bar tops all the way to bent elbows in the drops, but always appropriate to the gradient and my speed. I can get my torso reasonably close to level and pound along on slight descents and flat, straight segments, but over time it becomes uncomfortable, and when the road tilts up, the aero benefits dwindle while the ability to breathe and put down power increases, so I sit up because I can go faster and more comfortably that way. My bikes are all set up to allow me to do this comfortably.
Here's a pic of what is currently my favorite ride. The frame size is 59cm. Saddle height is about 78cm, and I run about 9 cm of saddle to bar drop. Saddle setback (nose to BB center) is about 4.5 cm - short thighs for the length of leg. I can ride this all day, the drops are usable for pedaling several miles at a stretch. Since this pic was taken, the levers have been moved forward a couple degrees on the bars, so they're closer to level. And the saddle is about 5mm higher.
And yeah, I DID sneak another opportunity to post the Litespeed.
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#958
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Wind resistance is very different, and wind resistance is that which road bike riders are putting in effort to overcome, so yes, riders will go "a bit" (or several times) faster/further in a group, such as a pro peloton where, according to one paper the wind resistance is about 20% that of a solo rider, as I keep quoting. This very large difference between group and solo riding could/might/should (? you pick. My pick is should) result in a large difference in riding style.
No-one is going to set up their bike around a peleton effect, because generally the time spend outside the peleton is at least as important - in pro racing that's the breakaways, in amateur riding that's getting to the group starting point, riding on their own or whatever.
No-one has disputed that you can get away with a less aerodynamic position in a peleton, but you seem to be missing the fact that nobody is really going to be doing anything differently if they are solo/group. Especially when training for events.
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I don't know about anyone else here but, after reading timtak 's nonsense I'm less inspired to ride than ever. I mean, if choosing my normal bike instead of a ridiculous cobbled, fake TT machine to replace a standard car trip is going to make me fat, then I'm just going to take the car instead.
I'm driving the errands, today.
Thanks, timtak !
I'm driving the errands, today.
Thanks, timtak !
#961
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I heard Lance rides like a madman ignoring traffic signals, real king of the road.
edit: found this vid MASH SF AUSTIN WITH LANCE ARMSTRONG - YouTube
edit: found this vid MASH SF AUSTIN WITH LANCE ARMSTRONG - YouTube
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I heard Lance rides like a madman ignoring traffic signals, real king of the road.
edit: found this vid MASH SF AUSTIN WITH LANCE ARMSTRONG - YouTube
edit: found this vid MASH SF AUSTIN WITH LANCE ARMSTRONG - YouTube
It's a strange place.
#963
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I think that all the pro teams use wind tunnels, and that they ride in teams. They ride in teams. They ride in teams. Their set up is set up to facilitate riding in teams. They also ride in break always about, or less than 5% of the time. I always, that is to say, always, ride on my own in a break away on a time trial always always always. But the pros get wheeled out all the time, though the ride in a very different way to me and almost all the amateurs I see.
In a road race, every rider spends considerable time with his nose in the wind, when they must substantially increase power output to maintain speed.
To name a few: working up the outside of the peloton to the front, taking their turn at the front, breakaways, covering breakaways, sprints, sprint lead outs, setting a high pace at the front to prevent breakaways, chasing to catch back onto the peloton after natural break/bike swap/picking up bottles at team car.
That is why road racing bikes are set up to make them as efficient as possible in a road race.
That is why pros prefer an aggressive bar drop, which enables a reduced drag upper body position when hands are on the hoods and forearms are horizontal.
That is why a road racing bike has features to reduce aero drag (frame shape, wheels, handlebars, internal cable routing).
That is why pros wear skin suits on fast road stages.
That is why pros wear aero socks and aero gloves.
Et cetera.
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That technicolor hearse is awesome! If ever I die from cycling regular comfortable bikes, I wanna go to my forever hole in that!
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I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
Car dependency is a tax.
I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
Car dependency is a tax.
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Wind resistance is very different, and wind resistance is that which road bike riders are putting in effort to overcome, so yes, riders will go "a bit" (or several times) faster/further in a group, such as a pro peloton where, according to one paper the wind resistance is about 20% that of a solo rider, as I keep quoting. This very large difference between group and solo riding could/might/should (? you pick. My pick is should) result in a large difference in riding style.
I agree. My comments are addressed to road bike riders.
I agree entirely, and sugest that folks don't ride in this "comfortable" position because it does not result in a good work out and because the "non-comfortable" position is in fact quite comfortable if your belly and knees do not overlap.
I am not sure whether or not "elite" riders who ride 32 to 4 plus hours will be interested in Robbie's style or not, but recreational cyclists that want to get or remain non-overweight may, in my humble experience be interested.
I ride about one hour at a time on my own.
I agree that pros would not be interested because they ride in groups, or in cordoned off roads.
I have often addressed aerodynamics.
This is the biggest issue I think. I am not saying that comfort is evil but when it is overemphasised it leads to ill health.
Tim
I agree. My comments are addressed to road bike riders.
I agree entirely, and sugest that folks don't ride in this "comfortable" position because it does not result in a good work out and because the "non-comfortable" position is in fact quite comfortable if your belly and knees do not overlap.
I am not sure whether or not "elite" riders who ride 32 to 4 plus hours will be interested in Robbie's style or not, but recreational cyclists that want to get or remain non-overweight may, in my humble experience be interested.
I ride about one hour at a time on my own.
I agree that pros would not be interested because they ride in groups, or in cordoned off roads.
I have often addressed aerodynamics.
This is the biggest issue I think. I am not saying that comfort is evil but when it is overemphasised it leads to ill health.
Tim
Your assumption that riders do not adopt your preferred riding position is due to fatness is pretty narrow minded even for a professor but those who do, do, and those who can't....
There are many, many reasons riders do not have the low stem that you advocate. Such as, a higher one with narrow bars is faster. They do long distance riding. When you get older, you might learn about more reasons.
Your notion that racers in the peloton do not need to care about aerodynamics is beyond ridiculous and completely contrary to the real world, Prof.
Your idea that a low position will help lower weight is similarly ridiculous.
Narrow and on the hoods is 21 watts faster at 45 kph compared to in the drops. You can do more research, if you want to learn something or go do your own testing. It is not hard.
https://cyclingtips.com/2021/05/real...s-are-fastest/
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I heard Lance rides like a madman ignoring traffic signals, real king of the road.
edit: found this vid MASH SF AUSTIN WITH LANCE ARMSTRONG - YouTube
edit: found this vid MASH SF AUSTIN WITH LANCE ARMSTRONG - YouTube
Wow, live from the Schmucklympics.
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#972
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Is a consumer better off riding a 1978 steel road bike that's maintainable with simple tools I bought 40 years ago? Is much of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitive racing edge. Eg, Is carbon anything as an anti-feature. ?
define competitive? Just because your not crit racing doesn't mean cycling isn't personally competitive. Also you don't need to be a dentist to want or to have enthusiast or pro grade bike/parts. People cycle for all sorts of reasons but I think it's human nature to keep pushing forward and that's kind of the underlying reason why people are willing to pay $600 for ceramic RD pullies, even though for $600 the diminishing returns are massive. Listen, a professional cyclist would kill me on a crappiest steel bike, so in the end it truly is your body that matters, what it comes down to is how much you want to indulge money wise. If that means a 1978 steel bike, all the more power to you but as someone who loves tech and loves trying new things, yeah I want to try electronic shifting, different frame types, carbon wheels and bits.
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define competitive? Just because your not crit racing doesn't mean cycling isn't personally competitive. Also you don't need to be a dentist to want or to have enthusiast or pro grade bike/parts. People cycle for all sorts of reasons but I think it's human nature to keep pushing forward and that's kind of the underlying reason why people are willing to pay $600 for ceramic RD pullies, even though for $600 the diminishing returns are massive. Listen, a professional cyclist would kill me on a crappiest steel bike, so in the end it truly is your body that matters, what it comes down to is how much you want to indulge money wise. If that means a 1978 steel bike, all the more power to you but as someone who loves tech and loves trying new things, yeah I want to try electronic shifting, different frame types, carbon wheels and bits.
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