Top Fillet Brazing Vintage (New one)
07-31-22, 08:04 PM
#51
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07-31-22, 08:17 PM
#52
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07-31-22, 08:25 PM
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So what does “Top” mean in the thread title? I know the OP isn’t a native English speaker. I’m thinking he means “best?”
08-01-22, 12:52 AM
#54
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I'm not going to list the greatest fillet brazers, because (1) I would forget someone and cause offense and (2) who knows, maybe the absolute GOAT is someone none of us have ever even heard of!
But Kirk is a consensus hall-of-famer.
I first saw this sort of "crested" fillet (shown in some of the Dave Kirk pics) being done by Glenn Erickson in about 1980. I doubt he was the first person to do it, just the first time I noticed it. He actually did it on lugs, liked to fillet over lugs for a swoopier transition radius. No pics unfortunately.
Later Mark DiNucci did much the same, I think he won an award at NAHBS with this:
But Erickson is a hall-of-fame fillet brazer too, for sure.
If you want to see fillet brazing (and fillet smoothing) being done by a master, watch Paul Brodie's videos. Like this one:
He's not making wall art, just MTBs to be ridden hard, not meant to be perfect, but he gets damn close to perfection anyway.
Mark B
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08-01-22, 09:32 AM
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These are quite nice pieces of industrial art. Fillet brazing was a popular technique when lugs didn't work (i.e odd angle frames, oversize diameter tubes, non-round tubes, etc.). That is one of the reasons why it persisted for so long on tandems. It freed the framebuilder/designer to explore new avenues prior to the development of internal brazing and the advent of TIG welding.
Its appeal these days is primarily aesthetic, a point not lost on a membership who prefers fancy crowns and sulpted lugs over Unicrown forks and and TIG weld beads. As already pointed out, these are massive fillets and are reminiscent of aero frames of the early 1980s. Consequently, they are much heavier than necessary and compromise the joint. There are certainly cheaper, lighter and stronger ways to join two tubes.
Even as art, I have some quibbles with these frames. The huge, aero joints don't work aesthetically when the bicycle is equipped with non-aero components. To my eyes, the sharp, pointed transitions from the stay ends to the rear dropouts, stand out in a jarring contrast of styles with the smooth, flowing transitions of the other joints. All the little touches, such as the exiting of the rear brake cable, rear derailleur housing and blind brake mountings are a little too complex and non-practical for my tastes, in what I consider should be an elegant but simple machine.
Of course, as art, it's subjective, personal opinion and as industrial art there's a melding of aesthetic and function for which each individual is going to have a particular blend that they consider ideal. Obviously, this mix is perfect for the OP and it's wonderful that he shows such enthusiasm for the brand. I can certainly appreciate his viewpoint and consider them quite nice, even though I find them somewhat disjointed and and the blend does not result in my ideal cup of tea.
Its appeal these days is primarily aesthetic, a point not lost on a membership who prefers fancy crowns and sulpted lugs over Unicrown forks and and TIG weld beads. As already pointed out, these are massive fillets and are reminiscent of aero frames of the early 1980s. Consequently, they are much heavier than necessary and compromise the joint. There are certainly cheaper, lighter and stronger ways to join two tubes.
Even as art, I have some quibbles with these frames. The huge, aero joints don't work aesthetically when the bicycle is equipped with non-aero components. To my eyes, the sharp, pointed transitions from the stay ends to the rear dropouts, stand out in a jarring contrast of styles with the smooth, flowing transitions of the other joints. All the little touches, such as the exiting of the rear brake cable, rear derailleur housing and blind brake mountings are a little too complex and non-practical for my tastes, in what I consider should be an elegant but simple machine.
Of course, as art, it's subjective, personal opinion and as industrial art there's a melding of aesthetic and function for which each individual is going to have a particular blend that they consider ideal. Obviously, this mix is perfect for the OP and it's wonderful that he shows such enthusiasm for the brand. I can certainly appreciate his viewpoint and consider them quite nice, even though I find them somewhat disjointed and and the blend does not result in my ideal cup of tea.
you point about design is well taken. I had the change to talk frame with Dave a year ago at CIno. it seems that with lugs, especially bottom bracket, there are a lot of non desirable design issues when you go bigger than 32mm tires, and filet brazed give more options so with the trend to bigger tires drives that mix a bit
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08-01-22, 12:07 PM
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Even as art, I have some quibbles with these frames. The huge, aero joints don't work aesthetically when the bicycle is equipped with non-aero components. To my eyes, the sharp, pointed transitions from the stay ends to the rear dropouts, stand out in a jarring contrast of styles with the smooth, flowing transitions of the other joints. All the little touches, such as the exiting of the rear brake cable, rear derailleur housing and blind brake mountings are a little too complex and non-practical for my tastes, in what I consider should be an elegant but simple machine.
Of course, as art, it's subjective, personal opinion and as industrial art there's a melding of aesthetic and function for which each individual is going to have a particular blend that they consider ideal. Obviously, this mix is perfect for the OP and it's wonderful that he shows such enthusiasm for the brand. I can certainly appreciate his viewpoint and consider them quite nice, even though I find them somewhat disjointed and and the blend does not result in my ideal cup of tea.
Of course, as art, it's subjective, personal opinion and as industrial art there's a melding of aesthetic and function for which each individual is going to have a particular blend that they consider ideal. Obviously, this mix is perfect for the OP and it's wonderful that he shows such enthusiasm for the brand. I can certainly appreciate his viewpoint and consider them quite nice, even though I find them somewhat disjointed and and the blend does not result in my ideal cup of tea.
Well said, Tx!
08-01-22, 12:39 PM
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Aside from that these bikes while beautiful in their own right are far from perfect in the filet realm he seems to think they are.
He stopped way too soon at 23 frames IMO.
08-01-22, 02:00 PM
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I think the thread is being redeemed a bit by some opening of other excellent builders to the thread... Erickson, Kirk, @bulgie (slipped you in there sir), Rex, etc...
I like some Russ Denny frames I have seen, and then there is this one I cannot identify the builder, but has intrigued me.
I like some Russ Denny frames I have seen, and then there is this one I cannot identify the builder, but has intrigued me.
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1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super
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08-01-22, 02:07 PM
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Are these unpainted frames that people are posting stainless? Clear coated? Or is it just that they're carefully kept away from moisture for shows/pictures? However they're done, they're cool (especially the matching ferrules above).
08-01-22, 02:10 PM
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The Krik is stainless and quite amazing as his work is. I can't confirm for the others but they look like they are post finishing and pre paint. It takes a bare steel a bit for surface rust to form.
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08-01-22, 03:21 PM
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08-01-22, 03:45 PM
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I am sincerely and truly sorry that what I am posting is tiring and trying for your person.
I am not saying that what I publish is perfection, but it comes very close...at my eyes as well as some great European framers whose names I won't mention, but if you follow the posts I publish, you will find some of them...
Also, can you explain to me what perfection is for you ?
Can you post some pictures about it?
I imagine that in your collection there is plenty of material for that.
In fine you say "very much not in the spirit here", so what is the spirit I should have?
I am not saying that what I publish is perfection, but it comes very close...at my eyes as well as some great European framers whose names I won't mention, but if you follow the posts I publish, you will find some of them...
Also, can you explain to me what perfection is for you ?
Can you post some pictures about it?
I imagine that in your collection there is plenty of material for that.
In fine you say "very much not in the spirit here", so what is the spirit I should have?
You have been asked many times, we are all about a good secret here but you have offered no explanation so far, not in the spirit.
"Perfection" would be no uneven or waviness in the surface or presentation of the transitions of the filets and while these are beautiful in their own right without a doubt, they are for the most part not perfect as a statement of fact which can be seen to my eye in most of your pictures.
They are obviously "perfect" for you in your perception and appreciation as many of mine are for me.
I'm glad you found us and are sharing these but a request for more information here is really just a formality, we almost always provide it without being prompted as it is a very large part of the spirit here and what we are about.
Many come here for help, support, encouragement, enthusiasm and information. When we ask for any of this in return we expect a response in kind.
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08-02-22, 11:17 AM
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Looks like the Campy 50th group sells between US$4,500 and $7,000. Probably not many vintage steel frames selling for those numbers.
08-02-22, 11:27 AM
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08-02-22, 11:42 AM
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I guess we'll have to assume you don't know or can't explain exactly how the rear brake and RD cabling work or how the SP is secured since asking only gets us more pics that don't help.
Again, these bikes are wonderful and I am glad you're so passionate about them but you will not be able to impart that passion to us until we understand these unique attributes that we know from experience can be very problematic.
Maybe Ringo could help if he was here.
I have a Merz that had internal cabling when it was built and somewhere along the way it was abandoned, soldered up, sealed off and left for dead.
I may try to restore it, leave it or clean up the leftover bits so they don't show anymore.
Again, these bikes are wonderful and I am glad you're so passionate about them but you will not be able to impart that passion to us until we understand these unique attributes that we know from experience can be very problematic.
Maybe Ringo could help if he was here.
I have a Merz that had internal cabling when it was built and somewhere along the way it was abandoned, soldered up, sealed off and left for dead.
I may try to restore it, leave it or clean up the leftover bits so they don't show anymore.
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08-02-22, 11:53 AM
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It's been suggested that the seat posts use a quill design, like old-school stems...but with the brake cable seeming to go directly through the center line of the seatpost, it would seem as though it would rub on any quill bolt, which also passes through the centerline of the steapost. Curiouser and curiouser....