rsbob 

You obviously have a very special and unique power to know what people think and motivates them. Congratulations on your super power.

No one likes it when people recklessly endanger other peoples lives while show-boating at speed on a bike path. In the same way, most people don’t like being painted by a broad brush no matter how asinine they are acting.

livedarklions

I don't think I missed your point at all. My point was that the use of that "yardstick" was making it ridiculously easy to twist your point into complete nonsense that minimized the carbon impact of cars. I have seen exactly that trick being used as an anti-cycling argument, it is really a very bad idea for cycling advocates to create absurd comparison statements that are useful for quote miners.

BTW, I didn't get into the nitty-gritty of how unfair your comparison was. I didn't check your numbers, but even if they're correct, you're basically including the carbon footprint of fuel production on the bicycle side of the equation but not on the car side of the equation. To be fair on this, you'd have to include the greenhouse emissions that occur during extraction of crude oil, transport of the crude to the refinery, refining gasoline, transport of the gasoline to the gas station, and pumping the gasoline into and out of the gas station storage tanks. And that's not even accounting for all the military action taken to secure that supply of crude. Include that stuff and bikes aren't even in the same universe as cars.

​​​​​​
​​

livedarklions

Can you give some thought to whether cyclists repeatedly posting photos of minor transgressions for thousands of people to see actually makes this "collective image" worse? Who would even have remembered this "incident" if you hadn't posted this thread?

AlgarveCycling

On the subject of cycling infrastructure, bike-friendly cities and attitudes towards cyclists and how cyclists themselves behave, Copenhagen is one of those that lead the way and demonstrates the many positive effects. Having cycled there I can attest to the fact that most are courteous and rules for cycling in the city are strictly enforced to the benefit of all.

https://www.visitcopenhagen.com/cope...-friendly-city
https://eu.boell.org/en/cycling-cope...-friendly-city

My stepson and daughter live there. Awesome city, fantastic cycling infrastructure.

I lived in Amsterdam for a time and that too is truly wonderful for cyclists and beyond anything you would see in other parts of the World. Imagine multi-story parking garages only for bicycles and a whole network of lanes and traffic controls only for cyclists. Similarly, Gent, where my wife is from, is also a great cyclist zone.

These cities aren't alone, there are many others. They prove it can be done. There are plenty of studies showing why they work, how they save costs vs motorised vehicles, how the environmental effects are greatly improved.

Countries like the USA, UK etc have a lot to learn from these and I'm sure their Urban Planners do take note.

The discussion regards calories and cycling etc...I agree that it doesn't hold any weight concerning cyclists and their environmental impact since it will be relatively negligible when taken in the general population context of what they consume. While the graphs provided are certainly true, they provide debate for general human food consumption and cannot be used against cyclists specifically in any meaningful way.

For example, It is true that my calorie intake increases per km (circa 2500-3000 cal a day overall and I do 400-500km per week) but that does not mean a greater beef intake and it is quickly cancelled out and overtaken by all the folks who eat far too much and the supersize-everything fast-food culture. Let's start there with the re-education debate - changing that will have a much greater impact on C02 than the cyclists who consume more than sedentary folk who eat enough to survive but no more.

It would also be true that the cyclists who are actually consuming a significant amount more than their sedentary counterparts due to their increased levels of exercise are more likely to be following a healthy diet in order to meet their performance goals; ergo, they are not the correct target for action of this type.

livedarklions

If you don't want to live in a city, who cares? No one is forcing you or attempting to.

Zoning laws in cities that prevent the building of anything but very low-density housing with minimum lot sizes and mandatory provision of parking spaces are not what I'd define as freedom. Those are government-imposed policies that virtually mandate urban/suburban sprawl.

Sy Reene

I visited Copenhagen with my elderly folks a few years ago. The cycling infrastructure is remarkable. However, whatever you do, don't walk in designated cycling paths. We got some angry remarks, as I was pushing my mom's travel wheelchair along one. In case you're wondering why that was so, a good amount the pedestrian sidewalks are cobbled.

AlgarveCycling

Yes, it is true of all those cities that cycle lanes are strictly for cyclists and not pedestrians. They do this for pedestrian safety given the volume of cyclists who use those lanes.

In Copenhagen you risk a verbal telling off and possibly a fine, in Amsterdam you risk being knocked over. They take their cycling network as being only for cyclists very seriously.

Contrast that with where I live now, Portugal, and I see pedestrians in cycling lanes all the time. No-one says anything. But that then defeats the entire object of segregating cyclists from pedestrians and cars and we back to square one, hence why in cities that have done far more than make token gestures, it is enforced by the city and cyclists themselves. It takes some getting used to at first - I know, been caught walking in them myself!

Sy Reene

I get it, it just seemed a bit ironic to be yelled at for moving a somewhat handicapped person around, since the tiny wheelchair wheels were hopeless to run over the cobbles. I guess only 2 wheeled human-powered vehicles qualify.

mschwett 

presumably it will only be see by fellow cyclists here. it’s not like i posted it on nextdoor or ****** with the subject “look what *******s cyclists are!”

the fact that some number of people defended the behavior kind of makes my point, sadly.

i spent a couple years helping my mom get around the city in a wheelchair (as you did in amsterdam) and it certainly pissed me off more than a little when cars blocked the sidewalk.

livedarklions

No, there's no presumption of that at all. Anyone who googles might end up on this thread and you have absolutely no way of knowing whether your photo may go viral or for what purpose. That's a man bites dog kind of parking situation--I've never seen that, I don't think it's a widespread behavior, and I honestly don't think it's likely more than a one-off, and a not very significant one at that. You've now handed a photo that someone can repost, labelling it misleadingly as somehow being typical of what cyclists do when nothing could be further from the truth. And to what end? Did you really think there's a bunch of BF readers and posters who would lock their bike/trailer up in that manner that you need to dissuade from doing so?

If you're really concerned about "our image", you are not helping things by blowing up the significance of an isolated incident and publicizing it. These "tsk, tsk" threads are pointless and completely not helpful to the causes you seem committed to.

Sy Reene

Coming to a city near you. Where do these e-bikes get parked? https://nypost.com/2022/04/01/ups-tr...an-deliveries/

livedarklions

Those are designed essentially to allow the 700 or so pound vehicle (wt. including driver and cargo) on bike lanes and presumably bike paths. If these are commercially successful, say goodbye to bikes in the bike lane--these will push them out by sheer numbers and mass. That thing going 15.5 mph packs a lot more kinetic energy than I'm going to be comfortable dodging around in a narrow lane.

Sy Reene

But these are for cities, and while there are bike lanes on some avenues, most side streets do not have bike lanes.

mschwett 

e-assist is a little misleading here…. More like “e-drive.”

hopefully such things will not be allowed in bike lanes. I’m not sure what the current rules are for entirely electric vehicles like stand up scooters, but they don’t present much if any menace here. Most are smaller and slower than most cyclists. that thing…. No.

livedarklions

We'll see. They have to get to the neighborhoods somehow, and I don't expect it's all going to be side streets. I'm picturing these things hopping on and off bike paths in the Boston area, for example. Those are often the quickest route between neighborhoods because you skip a bunch of traffic lights.

livedarklions

From the horse's mouth--bike lanes are intended:

https://about.ups.com/us/en/social-i...in-the-uk.html

Moles

You think that's something - this year I'm seeing gas-powered scooters (like Yamaha Vino etc.) using the bike paths around here. I'm not sure if it's strictly legal or not, but it *sucks* for everyone.

greatbasin

I'll fill half of one of those things just with my returns.