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Federal Panel Seeks Mandatory Helmet Laws

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Federal Panel Seeks Mandatory Helmet Laws

Old 11-06-19, 05:41 PM
  #26  
FiftySix
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Originally Posted by Flip Flop Rider
in SC you don't have to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle, so I doubt this is coming here

why not mandatory helmets for skateboarders, or children playing outside in general

next thread
Same in Texas if 21 or older for motorcycles. Then there are under 18 bicycle helmet laws in some of the cities here.

I wonder if this info posted by Joe R. in the comments section of the article is true?

Risk of head injury per million hours traveled:

Cyclist - 0.41
Pedestrian - 0.80
Motor vehicle occupant - 0.46
Motorcyclist - 7.66
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Old 11-06-19, 06:18 PM
  #27  
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I've been helping out my Dad across from New Orleans on the westbank for a couple months. In this time I have seen exactly 1 recreational cyclist. All I see is transportation cyclists and exactly zero are wearing a helmet. Back home in HI the recreational and commuter cyclists wear helmets. The urban cyclists (including Biki bike share) do not.

In HI there aren't many bike fatalities, and I don't recall helmet making any difference. But then I guess there's a thread for that.

scott s.
.
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Old 11-06-19, 07:05 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
Define “Boston area” and define “tons”. Out of 100 people on bikes, how many are not wearing helmets?

I mean, taking you literally, you’ve seen a few dozen people riding bikes without a helmet. That’s not the truth, the whole truth, and nothing....

-mr. bill
Are you trying to be a bothersome bore or....
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Old 11-06-19, 07:16 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Are you trying to be a bothersome bore or....
No, I’m trying not to call you a.....

-mr. bill
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Old 11-06-19, 09:51 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
...
Frankly, I didn't believe him when he said he doesn't see Specialized bikes in the land of RAGBRAI...
Frankly?
Care to point out where I ever said anything about not seeing Specialized bikes in Iowa or anywhere else? Perhaps you should respond to what has actually been posted, rather than your own snarky "interpretations" and fabrications.
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Old 11-06-19, 10:33 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by TheDudeIsHere
....

But yes, here, I see all kinds of cyclists. Sport, race, commute, recreational, and seriously even the children wear helmets on kiddie bikes as it is the law here.

...
I've lived in a half dozen cities over the years. One thing I've observed in every one - working class types who ride bikes because they cannot afford cars (or cannot obtain a license) almost never wear helmets.

Ben
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Old 11-06-19, 11:28 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by detroitjim

Federal Panel Seeks Mandatory Helmet Laws


A federal safety board issued a surprise recommendation for mandatory bike helmet laws in all 50 states — unanimously approving a last-minute resolution that had not been recommended by the board’s own staff.
It's too late for the panelists since they obviously have in one way or another already suffered brain damaged as evident by their arrested thinking. A helmet would not help them. Oh well, they have to do something to justify their phony baloney jobs.
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Old 11-07-19, 06:00 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Frankly?
Care to point out where I ever said anything about not seeing Specialized bikes in Iowa or anywhere else? Perhaps you should respond to what has actually been posted, rather than your own snarky "interpretations" and fabrications.
The too much Trek thread. First, you basically called someone a liar because they said they saw a lot of S-Works in Japan and then went on an absurd rant about how small Trek and Specialized market share of adult's bikes is. I believe you claimed that most adults ride sub-$100 bikes. So, ok, you didn't actually say "no Specialized" , but you certainly implied they're rare on the street.

This is a side issue on this thread, so I won't be responding on it further, but generally you and the person I was responding to are demonstrating classic confirmation bias.
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Old 11-07-19, 06:03 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
No, I’m trying not to call you a.....

-mr. bill
Yes, please don't call me a mr. bill. That guy's an....
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Old 11-07-19, 11:15 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
I've lived in a half dozen cities over the years. One thing I've observed in every one - working class types who ride bikes because they cannot afford cars (or cannot obtain a license) almost never wear helmets.

Ben
People who can't afford to buy a helmet often don't buy a helmet.
People who can't afford to buy a bike bell often don't buy a bike bell.
People who can't afford to buy bike lights often don't buy bike lights.
People who can't afford to buy button batteries often don't buy button batteries.

Around here bicycle advocacy groups will often give out bike lights this time of year. (See #lightbrigade .) And while they are at it bells, reflective bands, etc....

But some of these groups shy away from giving away bike helmets because a few vocal "advocates" object to giving away bike helmets.

So that task falls to community safety groups, often police, which brings another whole set of issues. (See the completely hamhanded, and I'm being kind, bike helmet giveaway by Salem Police.)


Other people who often don't buy a bike helmet are people who very rarely ride bikes.

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 11-08-19 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 11-07-19, 11:27 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Yes, please don't call me a mr. bill. That guy's an....
Well, in fact, about 75-80% of adults on bikes in Boston wear bike helmets, which are not required by law.
Completely coincidentally, about 75-80% of adults in cars in Boston wear seatbelts, which are required by law.

The rate of wearing a helmet rises to 100% for adults riding in a charity ride like Pan Mass or Bike MS. Because they are required - period.

And 100% for group/club rides. Both because they are required by the group/club, and because if they weren't the INCESSANT WHINGING about helmets - both by those who REFUSE to use a helmet and by the those who ALWAYS wear a helmet, makes for a very unpleasant ride.

Around here about 95% of people commuting to work wear bike helmets, even if they are riding a Blue Bike.
And about 20% of people who ride a Blue Bike "occassionaly."

And the lowest rates of wearing a helmet are by adults who can't afford to buy a helmet.

-mr. bill
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Old 11-07-19, 12:00 PM
  #37  
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Sounds a bit like 'if you only have a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail'.

The 'safety in numbers' argument might not be viable because the numbers are too far of, but if you want to move towards more cycling people just jumping on a bike for short errands and use of rental bikes might be important. The comparison with seat belts doesn't seem fair to me as seatbelts are actually a substantial contribution to safety.

It also sends the wrong messages. Like the helmet is the difference between safe and unsafe cycling. And the message that you need other equipment than a bike for cycling is a wrong one too.
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Old 11-07-19, 02:20 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
Well, in fact, about 75-80% of adults on bikes in Boston wear bike helmets, which are not required by law.
Completely coincidentally, about 75-80% of adults in cars in Boston wear seatbelts, which are required by law.

The rate of wearing a helmet rises to 100% for adults riding in a charity ride like Pan Mass or Bike MS. Because they are required - period.

And 100% for group/club rides. Both because they are required by the group/club, and because if they weren't the INCESSANT WHINGING about helmets - both by those who REFUSE to use a helmet and by the those who ALWAYS wear a helmet, makes for a very unpleasant ride.

Around here about 95% of people commuting to work wear bike helmets, even if they are riding a Blue Bike.
And about 20% of people who ride a Blue Bike "occassionaly."

And the lowest rates of wearing a helmet are by adults who can't afford to buy a helmet.

-mr. bill
Thanks for the data and the perspective, both are actually interesting, as opposed to your pointless bickering.

About 20-25% of adults unhelmeted sounds about right to me, it's definitely a minority, which is not inconsistent with anything I've said. It's also a lot more than "none", which was the statement I was pushing back on. Having ridden for several years in California, I found that claim completely implausible for California as well as for Boston.

Why you chose to jump on me with your dopey "tons" comment, I have no idea. You're absolutely an infuriating poster because I want to read your stuff because I learn a lot, but the level of obnoxious put-downs and insinuations always has me with one finger on the /ignore trigger.

So I'm trying to get your perspective on this, and am asking as politely as I can--are you saying that you're in favor of moving towards universal helmet use by giving people free helmets but not mandating them? I think that's what I'm getting from reading between the lines on this post. TBH, I don't have a strong opinion on mandating, but I tend to stray away from things that empower cops to get you off your bike "for your own good". I'm asking for your opinion on mandating their use because a) you know TONS more about it than I do and b) because you've given a lot of thought to it.

I will say that I'm finding the "riding a helmet makes you less safe" arguments just about as credible as anti-vaxx and flat earth.
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Old 11-07-19, 02:42 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
The too much Trek thread. First, you basically called someone a liar because they said they saw a lot of S-Works in Japan and then went on an absurd rant about how small Trek and Specialized market share of adult's bikes is. I believe you claimed that most adults ride sub-$100 bikes. So, ok, you didn't actually say "no Specialized" , but you certainly implied they're rare on the street.

This is a side issue on this thread, so I won't be responding on it further, but generally you and the person I was responding to are demonstrating classic confirmation bias.
Again, what "you believe" I posted is wrong, someone else incorrectly posted that I claimed that most adults ride sub-$100 bikes. You again are responding to strawman arguments created by you, or another poster, substituting words/or incorrect paraphrasing in order to change the meaning of what has actually been posted to better fit your own response.

You previously responded to your incorrect claims that I posted not seeing any bike from Specialized where I live "in the Land of RAGBRAI", rather than what I actually posted which was a question to another poster about the location where he claimed to observe that a specific, very pricey $10,000+ Specialized model, The S-Works, was everywhere.

Your decision not to respond again to what you "believe" I posted is welcome.
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Old 11-08-19, 05:18 AM
  #40  
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It'd be kind of funny to have a helmet law for cyclists here in Florida where motorcyclists don't require a helmet...
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Old 11-08-19, 06:11 AM
  #41  
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It remains they are self centered B'crats that want to control everyones lives. As I posted I never leave the house without a helmet. Stop with all the unnecessary laws and regulations.
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Old 11-08-19, 09:24 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
It remains they are self centered B'crats that want to control everyones lives. As I posted I never leave the house without a helmet. Stop with all the unnecessary laws and regulations.
How the hell do you know whether they're self-centered or not, and why does it matter? It's either good policy or it's not. "Unnecessary" is in the eye of the beholder--you can argue for your point of view on why it's not necessary without automatically assuming someone is a villain here. In the big scheme of things, I think the NTSB's work has saved a hell of a lot of lives, I just think they're out of their depth on this one.
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Old 11-08-19, 09:34 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Are you saying that you're in favor of moving towards universal helmet use by giving people free helmets but not mandating them? I think that's what I'm getting from reading between the lines on this post. TBH, I don't have a strong opinion on mandating, but I tend to stray away from things that empower cops to get you off your bike "for your own good". I'm asking for your opinion on mandating their use because a) you know TONS more about it than I do and b) because you've given a lot of thought to it.

I will say that I'm finding the "riding a helmet makes you less safe" arguments just about as credible as anti-vaxx and flat earth.
This topic is still destined for the everlasting gobstopper thread, but....

The only change to Massachusetts bicycle helmet law that I support is this: STRIKE: "A bicycle operated by a person under the age of eighteen in violation of this section may be impounded by the police department, or in a town which has no police department, by the selectmen, for a period not to exceed fifteen days." Springfield, Lowell, and Salem all had high profiles abuses of this section this summer, but this is abused constantly and it has to stop. (A nice side effect of striking that sentence? There would be no penalty for not wearing a bicycle helmet in Massachusetts. If that bothers someone too much, I suggest the fine be set at $1.00 for a first offence, $2.00 for subsequent offences, with a coupon that can be redemed for a helmet.)

Bicycle helmets are a medical question, not a legal question. The usual suspects here can argue with their own doctors all they want.

Bicycle helmet giveways are a proven intervention by the way. Surprisingly high percentage of people continue to wear a helmet once they start wearing a helmet.

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 11-08-19 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 11-08-19, 09:49 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
This topic is still destined for the everlasting gobstopper thread, but....


-mr. bill
To tell you the truth, I waded into that thread exactly once, saw it was the same conversation over and again for umpteen million pages, and sort of forgot it existed.

If I understood the gist of that thread, there are two countries in the entire world, and one of them is Holland.
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Old 11-08-19, 10:17 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
To tell you the truth, I waded into that thread exactly once, saw it was the same conversation over and again for umpteen million pages, and sort of forgot it existed.

If I understood the gist of that thread, there are two countries in the entire world, and one of them is Holland.
True story. Friends moved from Amsterdam to Boston. Brought their Dutch bikes.

Bought bicycle helmets.

Riding a bicycle is not dangerous.
Driving a motor vehicle is dangerous.

-mr. bill
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Old 11-08-19, 10:47 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
How the hell do you know whether they're self-centered or not, and why does it matter? It's either good policy or it's not. "Unnecessary" is in the eye of the beholder--you can argue for your point of view on why it's not necessary without automatically assuming someone is a villain here. In the big scheme of things, I think the NTSB's work has saved a hell of a lot of lives, I just think they're out of their depth on this one.
Allegedly the NTSB leaders disregarded the NTSB's own research and conclusions to come up with this objectively flawed and superficial recommendation. I haven't seen anything yet that legitimately speaks to their motivations, but it's human nature to speculate.
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Old 11-08-19, 11:31 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
Allegedly the NTSB leaders disregarded the NTSB's own research and conclusions....
The allegations are false.

Mitigating Head Injuries Particularly slides 39 and 41.

Originally Posted by Slide 39
Bicycle helmet laws for children and adults were the most and second most effective behavioral safety countermeasures by NHTSA
Originally Posted by Slide 41
NHTSA’s current emphasis on education and awareness campaigns is inconsistent with its own identification of helmet laws as highly effective countermeasures

Comprehensive strategy includes helmet legislation [emphasis mine] and complementary nonlegislative interventions
-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 11-08-19 at 12:16 PM. Reason: Pull quotes
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Old 11-08-19, 11:56 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
Allegedly the NTSB leaders disregarded the NTSB's own research and conclusions to come up with this objectively flawed and superficial recommendation. I haven't seen anything yet that legitimately speaks to their motivations, but it's human nature to speculate.
It's also human nature to engage in pointless ad hominem, and it makes the person doing it sound like an uninformed buffoon. I don't buy this "objectively flawed and superficial" nonsense--it's just not a clear and easy call either way.
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Old 11-08-19, 12:16 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
It's also human nature to engage in pointless ad hominem, and it makes the person doing it sound like an uninformed buffoon. I don't buy this "objectively flawed and superficial" nonsense--it's just not a clear and easy call either way.
Be that as it may, the measure was basically an ambush in the meeting. Brought up by surprise, against the staff recommendations.

Objectively superficial because it looked at only one data point, flawed because it generalized from the one data point without consideration of the actual, documented effects of similar measures (the same mistake someone else just made in this thread).
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Old 11-08-19, 12:49 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Bicyclist Safety on US Roadways: Crash Risks and Countermeasures DCA18SS002

Mitigating head injury. Head injury is the leading cause of bicycle-related deaths, and head injuries are prevalent in bicycle crashes with motor vehicles. A bicycle helmet is an effective way to mitigate head injury when a bicycle crash occurs. However, the underutilization of helmets continues to contribute to the incidence of deaths and serious injuries among crash-involved bicyclists. A comprehensive national strategy to increase helmet use among riders of all ages is needed. [emphasis mine] The strategy should focus on evidence-based approaches [emphasis mine] for state and local governments to increase helmet use among all bicyclists, such as a helmet requirement for bicyclists of all ages [emphasis mine]; helmet distribution programs; and effective educational campaigns.
Agree or disagree, listen to or ignore the evidence. But "basically an ambush" it wasn't.

-mr. bill
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