Anyone else keeping their rim brake frames ?
01-24-23, 06:49 AM
#651
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Sigh.. the advantage of tubulars is not the tires but the rims. Repeat: the rims. Tubular tires are held onto the rim with a few grams of high-strength glue, unlike clinchers (tubeless - same) which require 2 protrusions or hooks on the periphery of the rim to hold on the tire. These hooks are fragile, cause pinch flats, and add weight at the worst place on a bike.
Check your stats - tubular rims are always lighter than comparable clincher or tubeless rims. And due to the extra forces placed on disc-equipped wheels, disc wheels are always heavier than rim brake wheels, - and then you have to add rotors.
If you really want light, then Lightweight Meilensteins come in at 935 grams. Yes, for a pair of wheels. Due to the inherent design disadvantages of clinchers, this is not possible in tubeless or clinchers.
Check your stats - tubular rims are always lighter than comparable clincher or tubeless rims. And due to the extra forces placed on disc-equipped wheels, disc wheels are always heavier than rim brake wheels, - and then you have to add rotors.
If you really want light, then Lightweight Meilensteins come in at 935 grams. Yes, for a pair of wheels. Due to the inherent design disadvantages of clinchers, this is not possible in tubeless or clinchers.
01-24-23, 06:52 AM
#652
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But... You have to glue to tire in place. And it's not a simple slap on glue, slap on tire -type of maneuver either. It is a genuine hassle that makes bleeding brakes and seating tubeless tires seem like kindergarten play. And both things combined will take a fraction of the time.
What do you do if you get a flat mid ride? You'll need to carry a whole tire? Glue? Brush? Heat gun maybe? How good will a roadside repair really be?
If you have a support car then maybe tubulars still have their place (however judging from the pro peloton, probably not much longer) but for a regular joe? Just stupid. Almost like drillium.
As to disc wheels always being heavier (than rim), are they though? I mean you need to add stuff to the hub sure but you can take stuff away from the rim area. And some manufacturers already do. I wouldn't be so certain that disc is automatically heavier. And even if there is a weight difference, the added weight is where it matters less.
What do you do if you get a flat mid ride? You'll need to carry a whole tire? Glue? Brush? Heat gun maybe? How good will a roadside repair really be?
If you have a support car then maybe tubulars still have their place (however judging from the pro peloton, probably not much longer) but for a regular joe? Just stupid. Almost like drillium.
As to disc wheels always being heavier (than rim), are they though? I mean you need to add stuff to the hub sure but you can take stuff away from the rim area. And some manufacturers already do. I wouldn't be so certain that disc is automatically heavier. And even if there is a weight difference, the added weight is where it matters less.
01-24-23, 09:13 AM
#653
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Disc wheels on this article are lighter than comparable rim brake wheels, when available.
6 of the Absolute Lightest Carbon Wheelsets for Road Bikes - Cycling Road
6 of the Absolute Lightest Carbon Wheelsets for Road Bikes - Cycling Road
01-24-23, 10:25 AM
#654
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It’s been a long time since I’ve ridden tubular tires. Please remind me how you “field fix” a flat. I seem to recall a need to haul around a complete tire. I’m happy to not have to do that any more.
Do you know what’s slower than a heavy tire? A flat one. If tubeless tires significantly reduce the amount of puncture flats, that means more winning opportunities not lost for racers, fewer group rides brought to an irritating halt, and I get home sooner (or get to ride longer) because I’m not wasting time on the side of the road, that sounds like a very good thing to me.
But, yeah, he also carried a spare, pre-glued tire.
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01-24-23, 10:45 AM
#655
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01-24-23, 10:51 AM
#656
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Sigh.. the advantage of tubulars is not the tires but the rims. Repeat: the rims. Tubular tires are held onto the rim with a few grams of high-strength glue, unlike clinchers (tubeless - same) which require 2 protrusions or hooks on the periphery of the rim to hold on the tire. These hooks are fragile, cause pinch flats, and add weight at the worst place on a bike.
Check your stats - tubular rims are always lighter than comparable clincher or tubeless rims. And due to the extra forces placed on disc-equipped wheels, disc wheels are always heavier than rim brake wheels, - and then you have to add rotors.
If you really want light, then Lightweight Meilensteins come in at 935 grams. Yes, for a pair of wheels. Due to the inherent design disadvantages of clinchers, this is not possible in tubeless or clinchers.
Check your stats - tubular rims are always lighter than comparable clincher or tubeless rims. And due to the extra forces placed on disc-equipped wheels, disc wheels are always heavier than rim brake wheels, - and then you have to add rotors.
If you really want light, then Lightweight Meilensteins come in at 935 grams. Yes, for a pair of wheels. Due to the inherent design disadvantages of clinchers, this is not possible in tubeless or clinchers.
And its cool that weight is not only the priority for you, but the sole determiner for technology. Every one of us rides for some reason and we all have varying priorities.
Thing is, I took time to respond to your claims about weight and debunked many of them. You not only havent adjusted your rhetoric, you didnt even acknowledge it and counter. That, to me, is pretty sad. It shows you are dug in on a topic regardless of reality.
If you only consider weight, then your setup is often ideal. In reality, weight is simply one part of an overall formula for determining speed or enjoyment. You have chosen to value weight over anything else, but others value it differently. They arent wrong, and actual data can show as much. Its unfortunate you are to much of a fundamentalist to see this.
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01-24-23, 11:42 AM
#657
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I guess you mean chain guides on Enduro and DH rigs then? I’ve never actually dropped a chain since running 1x mtb drivetrains and that’s about 8 years. I don’t run a chain guide on my current full-suss trail bike.
01-24-23, 11:53 AM
#658
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Once more, you exist in a tangential world where weight is the only thing that matters. Aero doesnt matter, comfort doesnt matter, convenience doesnt matter, etc. Only weight matters to you.
And its cool that weight is not only the priority for you, but the sole determiner for technology. Every one of us rides for some reason and we all have varying priorities.
Thing is, I took time to respond to your claims about weight and debunked many of them. You not only havent adjusted your rhetoric, you didnt even acknowledge it and counter. That, to me, is pretty sad. It shows you are dug in on a topic regardless of reality.
If you only consider weight, then your setup is often ideal. In reality, weight is simply one part of an overall formula for determining speed or enjoyment. You have chosen to value weight over anything else, but others value it differently. They arent wrong, and actual data can show as much. Its unfortunate you are to much of a fundamentalist to see this.
And its cool that weight is not only the priority for you, but the sole determiner for technology. Every one of us rides for some reason and we all have varying priorities.
Thing is, I took time to respond to your claims about weight and debunked many of them. You not only havent adjusted your rhetoric, you didnt even acknowledge it and counter. That, to me, is pretty sad. It shows you are dug in on a topic regardless of reality.
If you only consider weight, then your setup is often ideal. In reality, weight is simply one part of an overall formula for determining speed or enjoyment. You have chosen to value weight over anything else, but others value it differently. They arent wrong, and actual data can show as much. Its unfortunate you are to much of a fundamentalist to see this.
01-24-23, 11:57 AM
#659
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My race (road) bike and TT bike 11 sp rim brake. I also have another franken bike equipped with 11sp 105 that is a trainer only bike. Gonna keep those three rolling as long as possible.
I recently built up a new daily driver/training/high QOL road bike from a 2022 TCR Pro frameset up. I thought about going 11 and rim brake, but after some consideration, I realized that never swap wheels between my bikes, so why not go modern? I went with hydraulic disc and 12 speed Ultegra Di2. I must say that I do not regret my decision despite compatibility limitations with my other bikes. It is a very, very nice bike to ride.
I recently built up a new daily driver/training/high QOL road bike from a 2022 TCR Pro frameset up. I thought about going 11 and rim brake, but after some consideration, I realized that never swap wheels between my bikes, so why not go modern? I went with hydraulic disc and 12 speed Ultegra Di2. I must say that I do not regret my decision despite compatibility limitations with my other bikes. It is a very, very nice bike to ride.
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01-24-23, 05:27 PM
#660
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Sigh.. the advantage of tubulars is not the tires but the rims. Repeat: the rims. Tubular tires are held onto the rim with a few grams of high-strength glue, unlike clinchers (tubeless - same) which require 2 protrusions or hooks on the periphery of the rim to hold on the tire. These hooks are fragile, cause pinch flats, and add weight at the worst place on a bike.
Check your stats - tubular rims are always lighter than comparable clincher or tubeless rims. And due to the extra forces placed on disc-equipped wheels, disc wheels are always heavier than rim brake wheels, - and then you have to add rotors.
If you really want light, then Lightweight Meilensteins come in at 935 grams. Yes, for a pair of wheels. Due to the inherent design disadvantages of clinchers, this is not possible in tubeless or clinchers.
Check your stats - tubular rims are always lighter than comparable clincher or tubeless rims. And due to the extra forces placed on disc-equipped wheels, disc wheels are always heavier than rim brake wheels, - and then you have to add rotors.
If you really want light, then Lightweight Meilensteins come in at 935 grams. Yes, for a pair of wheels. Due to the inherent design disadvantages of clinchers, this is not possible in tubeless or clinchers.
-breakage or serious damage in case of a serious pothole
-when a serious flat occurs you waste time glueing a new tubular
-fragility anf lack of robustness of some tubular over the years
-the last two years tdf stages have been won with clincher
The hook on clincher rims are not fragile, I have a pair of 1997 Mavic Cosmic Expert with which I have never had a single flat that still work well and they are clincher models
01-24-23, 05:31 PM
#661
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No everybody is into1*11 or1*12 mtb drivetrains. All is matter of purpose and needs, I don't run a chain guide on my MTBs as well.I ride only MTBs with10*3 mtbs drivetrains.
Last edited by georges1; 01-24-23 at 05:34 PM.
01-24-23, 06:27 PM
#662
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Sigh.. the advantage of tubulars is not the tires but the rims. Repeat: the rims. Tubular tires are held onto the rim with a few grams of high-strength glue, unlike clinchers (tubeless - same) which require 2 protrusions or hooks on the periphery of the rim to hold on the tire. These hooks are fragile, cause pinch flats, and add weight at the worst place on a bike.
Check your stats - tubular rims are always lighter than comparable clincher or tubeless rims. And due to the extra forces placed on disc-equipped wheels, disc wheels are always heavier than rim brake wheels, - and then you have to add rotors.
If you really want light, then Lightweight Meilensteins come in at 935 grams. Yes, for a pair of wheels. Due to the inherent design disadvantages of clinchers, this is not possible in tubeless or clinchers.
Check your stats - tubular rims are always lighter than comparable clincher or tubeless rims. And due to the extra forces placed on disc-equipped wheels, disc wheels are always heavier than rim brake wheels, - and then you have to add rotors.
If you really want light, then Lightweight Meilensteins come in at 935 grams. Yes, for a pair of wheels. Due to the inherent design disadvantages of clinchers, this is not possible in tubeless or clinchers.
01-24-23, 06:49 PM
#663
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Once more, you exist in a tangential world where weight is the only thing that matters. Aero doesnt matter, comfort doesnt matter, convenience doesnt matter, etc. Only weight matters to you.
And its cool that weight is not only the priority for you, but the sole determiner for technology. Every one of us rides for some reason and we all have varying priorities.
Thing is, I took time to respond to your claims about weight and debunked many of them. You not only havent adjusted your rhetoric, you didnt even acknowledge it and counter. That, to me, is pretty sad. It shows you are dug in on a topic regardless of reality.
If you only consider weight, then your setup is often ideal. In reality, weight is simply one part of an overall formula for determining speed or enjoyment. You have chosen to value weight over anything else, but others value it differently. They arent wrong, and actual data can show as much. Its unfortunate you are to much of a fundamentalist to see this.
And its cool that weight is not only the priority for you, but the sole determiner for technology. Every one of us rides for some reason and we all have varying priorities.
Thing is, I took time to respond to your claims about weight and debunked many of them. You not only havent adjusted your rhetoric, you didnt even acknowledge it and counter. That, to me, is pretty sad. It shows you are dug in on a topic regardless of reality.
If you only consider weight, then your setup is often ideal. In reality, weight is simply one part of an overall formula for determining speed or enjoyment. You have chosen to value weight over anything else, but others value it differently. They arent wrong, and actual data can show as much. Its unfortunate you are to much of a fundamentalist to see this.
01-24-23, 07:37 PM
#664
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Again, I'm referring to performance road bikes here. Not commuter bikes, third world pavement bikes, or cruiser bikes, milk crate bikes for picking up cans on the side of the road etc. The topic is speed bikes for good pavement.
Tubular wheels will always feature less rotational inertia because they don't need the two hooks circled in the pics following. This saves weight and prevents pinch flats.
So when you racing with the fast boys with clinchers or tubeless, you'll always have in the back of your mind whether your gear is good enough. The top serious athletes will have made the commitment to tubulars, and the associated gluing and the cost. Or let their sponsors and mechanic deal with it. But on those punchy little climbs or fast accelerations that leave you struggling at the back, you have to ask yourself whether you just want 'comfort' or 'convenience' which are just codewords for second best effort. Or are you really committed to performance?
Tubular wheels will always feature less rotational inertia because they don't need the two hooks circled in the pics following. This saves weight and prevents pinch flats.
So when you racing with the fast boys with clinchers or tubeless, you'll always have in the back of your mind whether your gear is good enough. The top serious athletes will have made the commitment to tubulars, and the associated gluing and the cost. Or let their sponsors and mechanic deal with it. But on those punchy little climbs or fast accelerations that leave you struggling at the back, you have to ask yourself whether you just want 'comfort' or 'convenience' which are just codewords for second best effort. Or are you really committed to performance?
01-24-23, 08:10 PM
#665
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“I ride my Veloflex clinchers on Mavic Open Pro rims at 140 psi with a contact patch about a square centimeter per tire, and I’m expected to believe that a 38 mm tire at 70 psi and a contact patch of 20 square centimeters per tire and attendant loss of energy due to the “squish” factor has less rolling resistance.”
01-24-23, 09:06 PM
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01-24-23, 09:10 PM
#667
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01-24-23, 09:29 PM
#668
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01-24-23, 09:29 PM
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Anecdotal, I know, but that is one of the advantages of single front rings.
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01-24-23, 09:52 PM
#670
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Another benefit I found is when riding in mud. Mud can cause havoc in the front derailleur, chain suck, locking up, etc. Never an issue with a 1 by..
Mountain bike design changed dramatically starting in about 2017. Old mountain bikes are fine for trail riding and some people can go fast on hardtails but modern mountain bikes can handle technical terrain far better than bikes of decades past.
01-24-23, 09:55 PM
#671
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You’re right, this is physics; the equations for rotational inertia are known; rolling resistance is a thing that can be measured. Please, outline your experimental conditions, and provide some results that support your position. We’ll wait.
01-24-23, 10:15 PM
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”Prove me Wrong “ is a lazy tactic. You can state your opinion, and punctuate it with “FACTS!!” If you want, but if you want to claim something makes a point, bring the math.
You’re right, this is physics; the equations for rotational inertia are known; rolling resistance is a thing that can be measured. Please, outline your experimental conditions, and provide some results that support your position. We’ll wait.
You’re right, this is physics; the equations for rotational inertia are known; rolling resistance is a thing that can be measured. Please, outline your experimental conditions, and provide some results that support your position. We’ll wait.
01-24-23, 10:20 PM
#673
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Someone has made a claim that the hooks on a clincher rim increase the moment of inertia of a wheel, and this has a detrimental effect on acceleration. It’s legitimate to ask how big this effect is. In no way is it a “prove me wrong” situation — it’s a “ support your claim” situation.
It's hookless clinchers that don't have the hooks
Tubulars are box section, no hooks because no raised brake track.
01-24-23, 10:57 PM
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We're talking about go-fast bikes, in which weight, especially rotational weight is the key differentiator of performance. Performance being measured as the ability to not be dropped off the back out of the corners or on hills. Or, even better the ability to shed stragglers off of the back through accelerations.
Last edited by tomato coupe; 01-24-23 at 10:59 PM. Reason: punctuation
01-24-23, 11:30 PM
#675
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Someone has made a claim that the hooks on a clincher rim increase the moment of inertia of a wheel, and this has a detrimental effect on acceleration. It’s legitimate to ask how big this effect is. In no way is it a “prove me wrong” situation — it’s a “ support your claim” situation.
When pressed for evidence, their response is either “No true cyclist” anecdotes, or to “do our own math”