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Polarized Training - Rebooted

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Polarized Training - Rebooted

Old 07-16-23, 04:50 AM
  #51  
PeteHski
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Originally Posted by Al Bundy
Many thanks All,

I know that HIIT Z5, 6 & 7 training can / will increase FTP, but on the other hand so it appears, does lots of Tempo/Sweetspot. From an `event specific training' standpoint time at Tempo would seem more appropriate. Outside of racing and the need to be able to get some separation from others, I don't know whether VO2max plays much of a role in this sort of event. I ask as I am open to either/both and interested to learn. For sure I'd like to be able to channel my inner Jens Vogt, but right now it's more a case of exorcizing Homer Simpson.
I'm hoping that ~10 hours a week of Z2 and with some Z3 added in will push up the LT1 and also a lesser extent LT2/FTP. I would anticipate riding this sort of event at the upper end of Z2 with some excursions towards FTP as necessary here and there. I suppose the question is; within the available limits of time and recovery, whether more time at Tempo or efforts in Zone 4+ helps more.
The problem with sweet spot intervals is that they are relatively high on fatigue. They can work well on a low volume training plan, but if you are moving toward a high volume plan then they might burn you out in the long term. I actually do them quite often, but only on a relatively low volume plan. For example I might do a 1 hour climb with tempo/sweet spot intervals instead of a much longer Z2 ride when I donít have the time. Basically I find 1 hour Z2 rides relatively unproductive.

While you might not ride at VO2 max in your events, I believe it plays a part in your endurance power and there is some evidence that it may help to slow down the natural decline in VO2 max with age. I read about a study of older cyclists and those that avoided high intensity efforts had a significantly larger drop-off in their VO2 max than those who continued to ride at higher intensity. But itís still early days in terms of understanding the effects of training intensity and volume on older athletes. We are effectively the first generation study!
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Old 07-16-23, 06:26 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Al Bundy
Awesome. I think I have my marching orders.

I will carry on my initial estimated Z2 6 days/ 1hour per week until my heart rate is happy and stable and then do a ramp test and reset numbers.

I then plan 4 days /1 hour at Z2, a single day for a longer Z2 ride, a rest day and add a day of SS/Tempo intervals. I plan to ramp the time at intensity of that single day of intervals over 6 weeks as appears attainable and then retest.

Your collective wisdom much appreciated,

I better go get on the trainer.


PS. Isn't nice when someone says senior and not older. I still get confused when some young nipper calls me Sir.

Eventually as you get within a few months of STP, you might find you need those four rides to be 90 minutes Z2 to trigger improvements but your plan with one day of tempo/ss should be pretty easy to take, meaning recover and get fitter with low risk of burning out.


Once you have your FTP pretty well estimated, you might consider to track your training stress balance (TSB) with one of the online training packages. I use the free GoldenCheetah. What I have found as I have become more mature aka senior is I need to build up slower to not over do it. I used to be able to handle -50 TSB fairly well. For the past 23 days, my TSB has been between -20 and -40 (with one blip down to -48 after a 200k with 9500 feet of climbing in 95F temps). Normally, I do not let myself go worse than -30 TSB over multiple days. This means my training load builds up slowly. YMMV. Although my morning heart rate variability is still good, I am on the edge but only have 5 weeks to my big event of the year and thus, this week's training is pretty much my last real training. I've also found for myself that a long ride (over 4 hours) isn't needed every single week. Every 2-3 weeks seems to be fine but it has to be long enough to matter and as fitness increases, the duration needed to stimulate improvement will increase too. So, I get to the point a 6 hour ride is needed but not every week if that makes sense. Again. YMMV. (I had two ice hockey games last week with the young college kids and played center on one game, and estimating that training load isn't easy).
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Old 07-23-23, 02:04 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
I have taken the polarized training idea to heart since last Spring and gotten my lactate curve measured in order to anchor my zones. I haven't raced on a bike for decades, but my power numbers were down considerably last season and I found it more difficult to keep up with the other old men. This with 10-14 hrs a week on the bike. I'm hoping a winter of 80:20-ish and strength training will help, but I'm afraid old age and mediocre alleles are catching up with me and I should probably be concentrating on more on being healthy and less on being fast.
But on the bright side, you're most likely faster and have a stronger cardio system then 99.9% of the population.
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Old 07-26-23, 12:53 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
I assume all that is true and lactate itself is the signal to turn off lipolysis, as far as I know. The question seems to be whether training in that zone provides a specific and necessary stimulus for the development of those energy systems or, alternatively, it doesn't really matter: You metabolize just as much lactate when you're really honking and there's no convincing indication that you can improve your lipolytic capacity just by burning fat all day. In support of that view are the many data on the high efficiency of high-intensity interval training for improving aerobic capacity in athletes and untrained individuals.
I wouldnít assume that first statement is true. I suppose it may be, but check out the second Andy Coggan interview on Inside Exercise where Coggan disputes that specifically, citing experiments where lactate was clamped (held at a high level) during moderate exertion and the primary marker for lipolysis not only didnít decline but went slightly higher.

So I think that is a point that would have to have some real evidence not contradicted by this line of research. Coggan says we donít need to burn fat to train our bodies to burn fat and that other modes also trigger and increase that capacity.

Overall, Iíd say Iím unlikely to assume any assertion in the exercise research realm is true without a considerable body of evidence.

Otto
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Old 07-26-23, 03:33 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by ofajen
I wouldn’t assume that first statement is true. I suppose it may be, but check out the second Andy Coggan interview on Inside Exercise where Coggan disputes that specifically, citing experiments where lactate was clamped (held at a high level) during moderate exertion and the primary marker for lipolysis not only didn’t decline but went slightly higher.

So I think that is a point that would have to have some real evidence not contradicted by this line of research. Coggan says we don’t need to burn fat to train our bodies to burn fat and that other modes also trigger and increase that capacity.

Overall, I’d say I’m unlikely to assume any assertion in the exercise research realm is true without a considerable body of evidence.

Otto
I think you’re right and I hadn’t heard about the lactate clamp experiment when I wrote that. I think that is pretty convincing as far as the real world of training is concerned. However, I believe there is some evidence that lactate is a signaling molecule in the control of lypolysis, which is where that idea comes from.
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Old 07-26-23, 04:16 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
However, I believe there is some evidence that lactate is a signaling molecule in the control of lypolysis, which is where that idea comes from.
Iím no expert, but my understanding is that the ratio of fat use goes down as blood lactate levels increase, so that would make sense.

Iím enjoying that podcast. As someone who isnít training for an event, I donít need to sweat the details too much. OTOH, I enjoy having more understanding of what the scientists have to say based on what experiments show and where some of the things other people talk about are coming from.

Otto
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Old 07-26-23, 04:49 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by ofajen
Iím no expert, but my understanding is that the ratio of fat use goes down as blood lactate levels increase, so that would make sense.

Iím enjoying that podcast. As someone who isnít training for an event, I donít need to sweat the details too much. OTOH, I enjoy having more understanding of what the scientists have to say based on what experiments show and where some of the things other people talk about are coming from.

Otto
Yeah, Iím no expert either and Iím just training to hang with a bunch of other old people, but I have the medical letters after my name and have spent a career in clinical research, so itís all pretty easy for me to understand when someone knowledgeable tells me what to read.
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Old 07-27-23, 07:06 AM
  #58  
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Exogenously elevating blood lactate is not the same thing as it being elevated naturally by your own body due to an elevated exertion level.

I am no physiologist, but that's what confused me about Coggans 'counterpoint'.
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Old 07-27-23, 10:23 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Steamer
Exogenously elevating blood lactate is not the same thing as it being elevated naturally by your own body due to an elevated exertion level.

I am no physiologist, but that's what confused me about Coggans 'counterpoint'.
What do you think is the relevant difference for this discussion? Circulating lactate has to be involved, since the signal has to get from muscle to adipose tissue to control lipolysis.
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Old 07-27-23, 11:05 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
What do you think is the relevant difference for this discussion? Circulating lactate has to be involved, since the signal has to get from muscle to adipose tissue to control lipolysis.
Not sure why you would ask me, since, as I said, I am not a physiologist. But, I do very much know that complex systems are not always well understood by even the experts, and sometimes unnatural conditions created by an experimental setup can lead to distorted findings due to the gaps in the experimenter's knowledge about the exact mechanisms. Testing a more natural, or native, scenario is always better than an artificial or forced one. That was my point.

In looking at Fig. 1 and 2, or perhaps better - Fig. 3, here:
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...it_Individuals

The relationship between blood lactate and fat oxidation is pretty clear, regardless of fitness and how the curves are shifted. These blood lactate levels were produced by exercise, not something artificial, like infusion of lactate.

Last edited by Steamer; 07-27-23 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 07-27-23, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Steamer
Not sure why you would ask me, since, as I said, I am not a physiologist. But, I do very much know that complex systems are not always well understood by even the experts, and sometimes unnatural conditions created by an experimental setup can lead to distorted findings due to the gaps in the experimenter's knowledge about the exact mechanisms. Testing a more natural, or native, scenario is always better than an artificial or forced one. That was my point.

In looking at Fig. 1 and 2, or perhaps better - Fig. 3, here:
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...it_Individuals

The relationship between blood lactate and fat oxidation is pretty clear, regardless of fitness and how the curves are shifted. These blood lactate levels were produced by exercise, not something artificial, like infusion of lactate.
I only asked because you seem smart and might know something I don't. I think the explanation usually offered for the inverse association of lactate and fat oxidation is that blood flow to adipose tissue decreases with exercise intensity, but, as you state, complex systems are complex and just because it's true doesn't mean its causative.
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