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Went for a walk today - an eye-opener

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Went for a walk today - an eye-opener

Old 02-18-14, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Assuming that walkers/joggers are walking/jogging in a straight line near the side of an MUP, what do you consider "the appropriate response" to your or any other cyclist's audible warnings?
I mean that they glance back at the source of sound, see that there's a bike approaching from behind, and then move over a bit to allow for a safer passing distance on their left.
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Old 02-18-14, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by crazyb View Post
If you ride on a mup, you have to assume people are going to do stupid things. How fast was your friend going? I ride on mups occasionally, and if there is traffic, its about 5-7 mph. As far as anybody on those paths, most are going to do as they want anyway, regardless of means of locomotion.
Law enforcement would probably not step in anyway, so it would be left up to the lawyers.
Yes, anything under 10 is correct, IMO. He was probably going more like 15-18. It only takes one person to take you out, not a whole lot of traffic. An injury can ruin your whole season.*

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Old 02-18-14, 04:01 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Lanovran View Post
I mean that they glance back at the source of sound, see that there's a bike approaching from behind, and then move over a bit to allow for a safer passing distance on their left.
Or at least stop walking in a mob of 5 right up the middle of the trail, with cycling traffic approaching from both directions. Good luck with that.
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Old 02-18-14, 04:17 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Lanovran View Post
I mean that they glance back at the source of sound, see that there's a bike approaching from behind, and then move over a bit to allow for a safer passing distance on their left.
As a pedestrian I would assume and factor in cyclists. But then, our path is called a Wheelway.
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Old 02-18-14, 09:08 PM
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If there is plenty of room, it's not always necessary to say or do anything. Sometimes just riding by is OK
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Old 02-18-14, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Lanovran View Post
I mean that they glance back at the source of sound, see that there's a bike approaching from behind, and then move over a bit to allow for a safer passing distance on their left.
A small wave of the left hand is starting to be the custom around here. I don't expect it nor really even care, but it is helpful to have an acknowledgement that they know someone is there. I ding or call, they wave, all is good.

I guess it depends a lot on the MUP and people, and I don't think we can generalize any of this into absolutes. If they're near the side like ILTB said, I'd rather they just keep going. Not move to the side, not look back, that just makes me nervous about what they'll do next. It's never so crowded on my MUP that I ever have to split the traffic; I can wait until it's completely clear before I pass safely. Makes up for my usual 15-20 speeds, which I think is also perfectly safe on my route as long as you know where not to.
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Old 02-18-14, 10:56 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Gerryattrick View Post
First sunny day for a while so went for a long walk with my wife on a MUP ..... I was amazed by the inconsiderate riding of so many cyclists. No use of a bell, no shouted warnings...... and riding as fast as if they had the path to themselves. I could see that many people, particularly the elderly and the very young, were often scared by people coming up on them fast from behind, with no warning, and even I could not relax and just enjoy the sun and the riverside walk. ......
....We often complain about the bad press cyclists get and today made me understand just a little bit more that we often don't help ourselves.
Wow. I've never walked the paths. Never thought much of what it might be like to have... me zip by. We have a 20mph speed limit on our local paths... although it isn't posted often. I always obey the speed limit... if there is anyone around. I wonder if it's one of those things that a person would get used to. I remember being a tad unnerved when motorists pasted close by me when I first cycled in city traffic. Maybe walkers get used to cyclists.

I used to shout "on your left" or just "bicycle" when pasting walkers, joggers, and the rare slower cyclist. But most seemed to ether not hear or occasionally panic and over react. At times... when riding the paths I feel like I am the only person not listening to an ipod... or chatting on a phone.

But... I do want to be polite and thoughtful. Maybe when the weather warms a little more... I'll walk a few miles in the walkers shoes (actually I'll wear my Nikes).
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Old 02-18-14, 11:27 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Lanovran View Post
I mean that they glance back at the source of sound, see that there's a bike approaching from behind, and then move over a bit to allow for a safer passing distance on their left.
I do not share your opinion that pedestrians on a MUP have to not only physically acknowledge the presence of every cyclist who chooses to announce his presence, but should also move over so that the cyclist does not need to plan on providing adequate clearance when passing.
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Old 02-19-14, 07:12 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by crazyb View Post
If you ride on a mup, you have to assume people are going to do stupid things.
Agreed, I don't expect pedestrians to walk in regimented lines - I certainly don't always do so. As a cyclist I am always wary that walkers might do something unexpected, in the same way that, as a car driver, I am always aware that cyclists can often ride 2 or 3 abreast, fall, swerve or turn unexpectedly.

I suppose the key is adapting your riding to suit the circumstances. The cyclist is always going to be in the minority, whether it's paths or roads.
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Old 02-19-14, 07:14 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
I do not share your opinion that pedestrians on a MUP have to not only physically acknowledge the presence of every cyclist who chooses to announce his presence, but should also move over so that the cyclist does not need to plan on providing adequate clearance when passing.
Methinks you're reading too much into my glib explanation of a generalized phrase that didn't really need explaining to begin with, not to mention putting words in my mouth (i.e. "have to"). If I really need to break it down further, I'm not talking about performing some ritualized bell-dinging routine each and every time I pass someone on a MUP; I'm just talking about some common courtesy being extended between parties involved when it becomes necessary to announce one's approach from behind (e.g. people jogging across the width of the entire path, a dog on an extended leash, a more slowly-riding cyclist, etc.). I did not say that the passing cyclist has no responsibility to provide any clearance (nor, I think, should that have even been construed from what I wrote). I always give plenty of space, and I have been thanked by pedestrians on several occasions just for using my bell; however, I have also had people whom I thought should have heard me coming abruptly very nearly cross into my path despite the warning and extra space that I give.

In that latter case especially, I don't see what's wrong with a pedestrian acknowledging the approach of a bike, or at least just taking a quick glance over their shoulder to see where the sound of the bell or voice came from, and maybe shifting just a step or two over if need be. That's what I would do myself if I were walking instead of riding. Even if it's just a perfunctory wave of the hand, as another poster mentioned above, it helps for those involved to know that the other person is aware of them. The bell or shout lets the pedestrian know that the cyclist won't run them down, and the glance or wave lets the cyclist know that the pedestrian isn't going to suddenly move into their way. I merely expect a mutual deference to each other in the interest of safety and courtesy. I do not expect a pedestrian to step off the path entirely and give a graceful bow or curtsy as I pass by, calling out a jolly "halloa, m'lord! 'Tis a fine day for a ride, is it not? Thank you ever so much for gracing me with your be-helmeted presence!"
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Old 02-19-14, 07:25 AM
  #61  
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Funny post courtesy (kind of) of the 41: https://www.atlbanana.com/beltline-ti...st-kills-four/



When reporters pressed Bradley, asking why he didnít join a sanctioned race at Atlantaís Dick Lane Velodrome, or any one of the myriad sanctioned road bike races in the area, Bradley said that he only felt fast when passing walking children. He was quickly shushed by counsel.
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Old 02-19-14, 07:29 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by capejohn View Post
If there is plenty of room, it's not always necessary to say or do anything. Sometimes just riding by is OK
Again, where I live, by ordinance and park rules, cyclists must provide some acoustic announcement of their intent to pass. Perversely, pedestrians are allowed to stuff earbuds in and crank up the music!

On the other hand, they've put up 'Ray LaHood' signs on the streets all over town and passed a 'vunerable road user' minimum three foot passing clearance ordinance.

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Old 02-19-14, 07:31 AM
  #63  
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Brilliant!
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Old 02-19-14, 07:31 AM
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A loud AH-CHOO, 25 feet away will get the attention of all but the extreme hearing impaired individual. They usually stop dead in their tracks and turn around to see where the noise came from. Even dogs perk up to the noise.

Situation resolved.
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Old 02-19-14, 07:38 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by OldTryGuy View Post
A loud AH-CHOO, 25 feet away will get the attention of all but the extreme hearing impaired individual. They usually stop dead in their tracks and turn around to see where the noise came from. Even dogs perk up to the noise.

Situation resolved.
How about leaving a little offering from last night's southwest cuisine?
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Old 02-19-14, 10:24 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by Gerryattrick View Post
I know, as a cyclist, that walkers can often be a pain in the backside, but that's no excuse for cyclists to act the same.
I don't act the same. I've waded through all of the posts in this thread thus far, and have several things I'd like to offer.

1. There may well be different expectations about how and what an MUP is for. For example, if you visit the web site for the Schuylkill River Trail, you'll see it described as a multi-use trail. Yet, you'll also see instances where they refer to "cyclist" in a manner that gives the impression that this is the primary use. I think it reasonable for cyclist to believe that they should be able to ride fast on this MUP. After all this is the primary use. This brings me to the next point.

2. I sometimes wonder if the folks who plan many MUPs see cyclists as anything more than someone taking a casual ride for recreational purposes. It makes no sense to me that portions of the MUP where I live are not maintained in the winter, despite many people using it for commuting purposes when it can be traveled. Cycling may not be seen by designers in the same way as those who use the MUPs. Hence, I think there are some built in design problems with most MUPs. Of course, one could argue that this is the case with many thoroughfares including streets with no adjacent sidewalks forcing people to walk in the road, bike lanes that are to narrow and encourage riders to be in positions where they can be hit by opening car doors, etc.

3. Concerning those who use MUPs, at least in my area. I've seen professional cycling teams use the MUP near me one or two days before a major race in Philadelphia. They always ride in a way that is respectful of other users and still ride fast. One thing they do that I appreciate is giving warning well before most other riders do. The lead will start shouting early enough that people have time to react. Often the first alert sounded is to the other riders - something like, "Traffic ahead", which then gets passed back through the group. When the situation seems dangerous, they tend to slow down and proceed with real caution. I must say that I've rarely seen local clubs or rides behave as well as I've seen professionals ride. In terms of non-cyclist, I frequently see people who don't recognize that an MUP is a place that should be treated just like it was a highway, but with the traffic being people walking, skating, riding, running, etc. I know I'd never make a U-turn on the streets without looking first. So, for many of the people I see who act in dangerous ways, they simply aren't thinking of the MUP as a serious place, and it is. I've seen two runners collide with each other when one made an unannounced U-turn. Both ended up bloodied and hurt. So, it's not just cyclists or horses being the dangerous elements on MUPs.

4. For my part, I treat riding, regardless of where it is as a serious activity. I try to follow the rules of safety that make the most sense to me. Perhaps at the top of the list is the notion of "adjusting one's speed." When on the highway in a car and approaching an on ramp with merging traffic, I used to think "slow down", which I'm not prone to like doing, or "speed up" which appeals to my basic personality more. Hence, I would sometimes make the wrong choice and put others in danger. These days I think, "adjust your speed", which takes the "fast is better" mindset out of the picture for me. Sometimes adjusting your speed means go faster, other times it means go slower, and only being in the situation at the time can tell you which it is. I guess my point here is that often the way we think about things has an impact on how we act.
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Old 02-19-14, 11:09 AM
  #67  
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Just a mention of MUPs and use by cyclists... there was a time, if someone considered themselves a serious rider, I would question then about using a MUP versus the road. I myself would never use a MUP - just too many hazards... but fast forward to the present time... I live in an extrmely congested area... roadways are filled with drivers who are distracted with cell phones, music, texting, drugs, lack of experience (just about every 16 year old gets a car) whatever. Ask any So Ca rider about this and they will confirm, not a week goes without a car v. cyclist fatality...so... my attitude had to change. If I am not mountain biking, I will use bike trails, MUPs, dedicated sidewalks - whatever is available to get me off the street and away from cars. That means I had to slow down abit... better that than being dead...
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Old 02-19-14, 11:36 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by Dudelsack View Post
Funny post courtesy (kind of) of the 41: https://www.atlbanana.com/beltline-ti...st-kills-four/



When reporters pressed Bradley, asking why he didn’t join a sanctioned race at Atlanta’s Dick Lane Velodrome, or any one of the myriad sanctioned road bike races in the area, Bradley said that he only felt fast when passing walking children. He was quickly shushed by counsel.
I resemble every remark.

We have a strava course that has 110 riders checking in for the 13.4mi course...and it is often spoiled by semi-pro riders passing through. I am one that loves and defends his top ten standing. There are plenty start/stops (you can roll thru), slow riders and some pedestrians. I will only attack the course when I'm bumped out of the top ten. I am extra careful on curves with short visibility distance. If I cannot see within stopping distance I slow down and downshift awaiting the full sprint out on the straight. I holler an alert and pass slowly when young ones and oldsters are present but when someone comes into sight up ahead, full kit....game on, baby.
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Old 02-19-14, 01:11 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by OldTryGuy View Post
A loud AH-CHOO, 25 feet away will get the attention of all but the extreme hearing impaired individual. They usually stop dead in their tracks and turn around to see where the noise came from. Even dogs perk up to the noise.

Situation resolved.
Perfect; if the situation is a need, desire, or compulsion to draw attention to yourself.
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Old 02-19-14, 02:17 PM
  #70  
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I may get flamed for this, but walk facing the traffic, folks. If there is dirt or gravel next to the trail you should walk on that when the trail is busy. Seriously, whenever possible don't put yourself in a position where bikes are sneaking up on you or slaloming around you. Even a slow bicyclist is going a lot faster than you are walking.

I'm convinced ear buds are a disaster. When walking, running, bicycling your situational awareness is really important. If you have your back to the oncoming traffic and ear buds in, you make yourself sort of blind, deaf and distracted.
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Old 02-19-14, 02:55 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Al Criner View Post
I may get flamed for this, but walk facing the traffic, folks. If there is dirt or gravel next to the trail you should walk on that when the trail is busy. Seriously, whenever possible don't put yourself in a position where bikes are sneaking up on you or slaloming around you. Even a slow bicyclist is going a lot faster than you are walking.

I'm convinced ear buds are a disaster. When walking, running, bicycling your situational awareness is really important. If you have your back to the oncoming traffic and ear buds in, you make yourself sort of blind, deaf and distracted.
No flame here, since if it's not crowded I don't care as a cyclist which way they're walking. But I've always been curious about one thing when I come across this. What's your plan when you're walking on the left side and bicycle traffic is approaching from behind, which would be on your right side, and there's also foot traffic or bicycles heading at you in your lane? You don't jump right I hope, so it's step off? Stand your ground? If there's a railing or some other impediment to getting off the path, what happens then? If you just stop, and they stop in front of you waiting, the face-off seems like it would be kind of awkward. Does that ever happen?
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Old 02-19-14, 02:59 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by Al Criner View Post
I may get flamed for this, but walk facing the traffic, folks. If there is dirt or gravel next to the trail you should walk on that when the trail is busy. Seriously, whenever possible don't put yourself in a position where bikes are sneaking up on you or slaloming around you. Even a slow bicyclist is going a lot faster than you are walking.

I'm convinced ear buds are a disaster. When walking, running, bicycling your situational awareness is really important. If you have your back to the oncoming traffic and ear buds in, you make yourself sort of blind, deaf and distracted.
Fine if you have one-way paths, which I've never seen, or a two-lane system, which I've also never seen, impossible otherwise.

Given that most of the cyclists I saw were on MTBs or hybrids, which are fine on rougher ground, why can't they ride just off the trail? (not being serious, but why should walkers give way?). Road bikers were not a problem at all as they seem to get all the speed they need on the road with the grown-ups.

Perhaps MUPs are different in the States, but in the UK they are overwhelmingly used by walkers, except possibly early morning commuters.

All I'm asking is more consideration on all sides.

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Old 02-19-14, 08:28 PM
  #73  
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wphamilton and gerryatrick: I should give a more specific explanation of what I mean.

First, where I live we have miles of paved MUP. It has a stripe down the middle dividing it into 2 lanes. It gets massive use from bikes of every kind, walkers and runners. Some parts are straight and flat with good sight lines, some parts go up and down hills and/or wind through the trees with blind curves, and there are a lot of intersections with access points (access roads, parking lots or side trails to local streets). At times it is pretty empty, other times extremely busy.

There are actually rules on the web for it, and they basically say what I said above. Since there are lanes, bikes are supposed to stay on the right and pedestrians really should walk on the left, facing oncoming bikes so they don't get surprised. If pedestrians and runners stay in the dirt path next to the pavement then they can largely avoid collisions with the bikes.

It doesn't make sense for bikes to jump on and off the trail since the trail is often raised a bit above the ground and rolling on and off of it would be dangerous. It isn't really about pedestrians giving way to bikes. It is really intended for the bikes to be on the asphalt and not tearing up the landscape and the pedestrians can safely walk along the path or peel off on side trails that wind in and out along the way. Keep in mind, this is northern California so it is a dry climate and compacted ground along these trails is generally a pretty decent surface for walking. If your trails are completely different then this, then my comments may not apply.

I think in the end everybody has to pay attention out there. I would always suggest walking against the wheeled traffic and as far to the side as you can. The bike riders have the responsibility to control their speed and be considerate to the pedestrians since we are all sharing the space and we can do real damage to folks (and ourselves) in a collision.

The ear buds still don't make sense when you are walking, running or riding. Your senses can't keep you out of trouble if you block them.
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Old 02-19-14, 09:12 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Al Criner View Post
I may get flamed for this, but walk facing the traffic, folks. If there is dirt or gravel next to the trail you should walk on that when the trail is busy. Seriously, whenever possible don't put yourself in a position where bikes are sneaking up on you or slaloming around you. Even a slow bicyclist is going a lot faster than you are walking.

I'm convinced ear buds are a disaster. When walking, running, bicycling your situational awareness is really important. If you have your back to the oncoming traffic and ear buds in, you make yourself sort of blind, deaf and distracted.
As a pavement pounder I am always training facing vehicular traffic. I tried doing so my first time on a MUP but felt extremely awkward and uncomfortable. As soon as I went with the flow, things smoothed out and order was restored. If rules are in place where I must face the cyclists, I will do so. If no rules, I'll keep right, but will also have my eyeglass mirror on.
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Old 02-19-14, 09:47 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
. . and the ones walking on the bike path when there is a an adjacent surface dedicated to pedestrians (e.g. when the path is not a MUP).

I'm all OK when people run side by side to chat, even three or four abreast. But why the hell would someone running by themselves insist on running right up the center of the path? To me, it smacks of a complete disregard for others using it. It makes no flippin sense to me.

And the ones walking/running on the bike path when there is an adjacent pedestrian path? Even more galling, because to me, it makes even less sense. Same surface (concrete), the bike path is usually less well lit and has more sand on it. They are literally 10 feet apart, with exactly the same view. I generally follow Napoleon's theory on this (attributing to incompetence rather than malice wherever possible), but the same people do this day after day, and I know they've been told.

*Sigh* It's the utter lack of logic in it that troubles me most.
This one baffles me as well, and I say this as a runner as well as a cyclist. All of the Minneapolis lakes have both a walking path and a cycling path. For some reason, the cycling path has some sort of magnetic attraction for runners. I guess there's not enough iron in my blood though; I always ran on the walking path.

As you say, no big deal, but even on the biking path runners will run 2 abreast, and not move in the least when bikes pass them.

Last edited by loky1179; 02-19-14 at 09:50 PM. Reason: fixed quotes
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