Classtime 

On my 20 mile rt commute I see increasing numbers of down tube shifters but also a greater increase in *-bikes. As the carbon guys age, many will discover the joy of quality steel, mashing a 42-24 up hill and the old school smooth descent.

BFisher

Let it wane. I'm tired of paying more and more for replacement parts that nobody seems to want, save for a small handful of hoarders. But seriously...

Whenever these discussions pop up, I think of the concept of timelessness. Classic cars are classics because they will always turn heads. They'll always be beautiful, just like antique furniture, watches, etc. Same with classic bikes. Modern (for lack of a better word) aesthetic design has killed that, for diminished gains to boot. Somewhere along the way, we decided not to make beautiful things anymore. We got dull. Nobody will ever look at a 2022 Cadillac the way people look at a 30s or 40s or 50s Cadillac. Ever. Same with a 2022 Cinelli Pressure. It will never catch the eye like a classic Model B. Not now, not ever. Not even close. Heck, my '51 Raleigh Sports is timelessly beautiful, and it is a utility bike. The only new bikes that come close are the ones that try to maintain the classic design. Again, timeless.

Design will see a renaissance. It always does. Somebody will come along and ask why all this stuff we make has to be so ugly. Who knows when that will happen? I'm 42, and I'm just glad I still get to enjoy some of this old beautiful stuff.

jdawginsc 

I am not saying they ARE sluggish, but compared to 16 pound bicycles, and 23 pound lightweight from the 70s or 80s might be perceived that way.

AdventureManCO 

I hope so. Cars have looked like eggs now for a long time. The International Style, in modern architecture, has uglified buildings for far too many decades.

mstateglfr 

I have 5 c&v road frames hanging without any plan. 80s Peugeot 531, 80s handbuilt builder, 70s Gitane, late 80s Schwinn, and mid90s Cannondale CAAD3.
The Cannonsale was stripped a year ago and I had planned to paint it. I have the base and 1 coat on, bit haven't sanded it, mich less applied another coat, the splatter colors, or the top coats.

All of it is just a lot of work and what little bike time I have is going to be spent actually riding.



I will say that between groupsets going disc and electronic shifting at the 105 level and higher, I am super unmotivated to take on new projects. I like updating old frames with modern components and if I can't even slap 105 on a bike, I am not sure I really care to the project.
Also, the era of inexpensive/affordable components is long gone. The 2014-2018 era was glorious.

Chombi1 

Definitely feels like it's waning and I don't see it turning around for a long, long time....
Maybe most C&Vers are like me, already got the personal grail bikes I have been lusting after for years. I don't really see anything else out there that I might be interested in aquiring/riding....

branko_76 

yes....except that he said "prolly" two too many times...

merziac

He "prolly" just got a little carried away.

obrentharris 

I understand the curiosity about where our hobby is going. I don't understand the hand wringing.

In 20 years or so I will be dead. Whether someone after me loves my 1957 Carlton or my 1961 Allegro as much as I do means little to me. Heck, it's a minority of the folks frequenting this forum who are passionate about bikes that old, but that's just fine with me as long as you find bikes or other pastimes in life that get you excited and give you happiness.

My children and grandchildren all have interests and passions of their own. They're willing to admire my bikes, old and new, but none of them share in my hobby. I, in turn, admire their woodworking projects, succulent gardens, never-ending Vespa scooter project, daily gym workouts, Lego creations, and art works. Each of us is glad that the others have found pastimes that give them happiness. I have faith that humanity will continue to find enjoyable ways to fill our lives, whether mid-twentieth-century bicycles play any part in that or not.
Brent

RiddleOfSteel

As someone who still picks up, fixes up, and sells some vintage stuff, especially in 63.5cm form, it's a slim market and low price will carry the day, albeit slowly, compared to the new and newer stuff. This is certainly not 10 years ago, nor 2 years ago, and that is the reality.

Your comment on timelessness and inherent and last beauty resonates with me. I fight against being someone that increasingly spites new products, designs, and styles, even as an early Millennial getting no younger, but have found that many modern trends are simply trends, disconnected from more holistic thinking--beauty, timelessness, durability, etc. No doubt the new technology is considerable, and there is peripheral benefit that I do appreciate and enjoy, but man does that planned limited durability (or perhaps the increasing obviousness of it) is discouraging. Well, at least in mass produced products. Virtue has largely existed in the limited production run and boutique, because idealism is best evidenced, it seems, when mass production and profit are not motivating and necessity .

I think that beauty can be had in any material, and that includes carbon fiber employed in modern frames. Deference to aerodynamics and UCI rules certainly limits an extremely capable material, and I appreciate aesthetic exploration that is attractive whenever its done. Still, straight tubes and well-done lugs set to good angles never looks bad, and this is coming from someone who never knew what lugged steel construction was until his late '20s. This goes doubly so for tall frames as many modern companies seem to design for a mid-size rider (understandably as that is what comprises the bulk of the market) and forget proportion and aesthetic for the XL and XXL-sized frames.

Increasingly, I have taken a shining to late-1920's to 1930s cars. And not just the luminaries of the period, but some of the more common offerings. Good proportion is timeless, whether it be a Pontiac or an Auburn. Now when that conversation turns to affordability (to purchase, at the very least) and practicality (to run, keep up with modern traffic, be reliable in a 2022 context), that reveals the shortcomings of vehicles of that period, even as new as '60s and '70s vehicles. If one's living situation, location, and finances allow, it can work, and that's great. My car enthusiasm will have to be directed elsewhere at present, though. Vintage '70s and '80s bikes (or, frames more specifically), thanks to many of their standards being held well into the 2000s, enjoy an extended, if semi-eternal practicality decades after their production. Thus, lugged construction gets to be seen by many even today (to say nothing of builders who construct lugged frames in limited numbers still today).

I am an industrial designer by vocation, officially, though my training was heavily biased towards automotive design. Sleek, svelte and beautiful has always been my inclination. Timeless designs, proportion, line and form are always on my mind, even if they're in the service of non-moving entities. I think there is an inherent desire for beauty in many of us, and an eye for it among those. Ever the optimist, I think we will always find a way to find that beauty and/or create it. I will certainly do so. So yeah, C&V may be waning, and the combined KOFs and budget-minded vintage-bike buyers may be decreasing, but like others have said, things ebb and flow, start and end. I can't control it, and I need to manage it when it comes to selling such bikes, but you'll see me with two vintage, lugged, steel beauties, albeit with upgraded components (indexed downtube shifting, dual pivot brakes, more gears out back, newer tires, etc), enjoying them.

zastolj

Well said, 100% agree with all of this! What especially gets me is the proprietary parts and incompatibility issues that have multiplied over the past decade. The claimed advances in technology have then been an excuse to raise the prices. Servicing modern bikes is complicated for the average home mechanic and the same old traditional skills do not apply anymore. All of this complication is just unnecessary. I never needed thru-axles, integrated cable routing, carbon fiber frames, disc brakes, pressfit bbs, 12s cassettes, proprietary wheel parts or electric gears on my road bike. Just a couple examples: finding first gen Ultegra di2 parts, proprietary frame parts for a 7 year old Canyon or a spoke for your 10-year old Mavic or Shimano wheelset can be expensive and sometimes difficult or even impossible. It all takes away the point; the beautiful simplicity of the bicycle as a durable transporting and sporting equipment. Even the environmental aspects of cycling are nowhere to be seen if you look at what they are selling today. (Carbon still can not really be recycled as I understand?)

I absolutely think that the road bike technology was at its peak in the 90s, if you consider serviceability for the average consumer as well as just the basic function and durability of the bike and the enjoyment you get from it. I have some exceptions to this such as saddles and clincher tires which arguably have developed some in the past decade. But I almost literally can not find a reasonably priced good quality 5-year old used bike without all of these modern features that make the bike more difficult and expensive to service. Just one example; give me a pair of good quality 32-hole rims, brass nipples and some normal quick-release 105-level hubs and I will build a fine simple wheelset that will take a beating. This type of wheelset should be the default for the amateur rider. But even if I build it myself I have to pay a premium to get that compared to a fancy looking modern wheelset with special bladed straight pull 20/24 spokes often with a soft alloy freehub and corroding alloy nipples. All proprietary parts that I´m certainly not sure I can find easily after 5 years (because the manufacturer of course made the next generation a completely different design...) I clearly don´t have the money for this sport as I´m kinda forced to go vintage. I´m just so sick of all this. Rant over, have a nice day!

icemilkcoffee 

Just like classic cars, interest in the older vehicles will wane and newer cars will fall into 'classic' status. I think in recent years, there is more interest in older MTB's. A lot of collectors grew up when MTB's were dominating the market, from the mid 80's to the mid 90's. My bikes are all from '85 to '97. I should be the prime audience for an older MTB, but I just don't find them attractive.

wrk101

The lower to mid level stuff, waning for sure. The niche US builders are doing well. Paramounts have remained stable.

Really, once the SS/FG conversion craze ended ~10 years ago, that put an end to the lower end market. I see a lot of them end up in co op scrap piles.

Early higher end rigid frame MTBs are hanging in there.

i stopped refurbishing and selling mid level or below road bikes as I couldn’t cover consumables, more less get something for my time.

Still decent parts can do well. Mid level or below parts not so much.

mstateglfr 

It's the c&v forum so of course there will be some old man yelling at clouds moments, but your post kicks it up another notch.
I agree that home servicing a new bike has become more complicated. But let's not pretend like home service was common 10, 20, or 40 years ago. And let's not pretend it was simple either.
Most anyone who buys older bikes has come across at last one, and likely many, caged bottom brackets that were too tight or too loose due to poor installation and likely not using proper tools.
Then you have headsets that are also poorly adjusted and nuts that are scared due to improper tools. Hubs that again are too tight or too loose.
Pitted cones and races everywhere.

Now to address current technology- complaining about carbon frames should just get you ignored. Carbon as a mainstream frame material is well over 3 decades old.

- You complain about pressfit bottom brackets while ignoring there were commonly multiple bottom bracket threadings 40 years ago.
- You complain about disc brakes while ignoring the braking quality of many bike shop level bikes was terribly low 40 years ago. <--- due to low quality calipers, low quality housing, low quality cables, and/or low quality pads. Entry disc brakes are infinitely better than entry rim brakes from 30 and 40 years ago.
- finding 1st gen di2 parts is tough, agreed. You seem to forget DA from the 80s which wasnt compatible and killed off. It's not like this is new. Oh, how about the Shimano freehub from the early 80s that was just killed off and not supported? Here is a pic from BF showing the number of freehub/freewheel tools a member has.



I agree that proprietary components can be frustrating due to lack of support years down the road. That is hardly unique to recent years though.
Oh, and thru axles just aren't something to complain about. They are simply threaded rods that hold a wheel in place. You are scraping the bottom of the barrel if that's what you have to complain about.
1- you don't decide what sh9uld be the default for an amateur rider. Someone who rides 100mi a year, someone who rides 100mi a month, and someone who rides 100mi a week are all amateurs yet they will likely want different equipment.
2- many road bikes do come withbwheelwets that are effectively what you describe. Some will have fewer spokes, but this isn't 1982 and wheel builds and design have improved to where a wheel can be as strong or even stronger than some shallow 36h box wheel from the 80s.
3- you don't have to pay a premium to get a wheelset with 32h and a 105 hub. Come on. Velomine has those wheelsets for sale and they are anytuibg but premium in price.
4- what freehub from 5 years ago doesn't have spokes available? I am unsure of what you are referring to.

wrk101

Like anything that enjoys a “collectible” premium beyond basic utility, collectible premiums come and go. It’s foolish to treat them as investments: OK, rare art work can do well, but that’s outside my budget.

squirtdad

Add electronic shifting to that along with disc..... 105 and above is now all electronic

my next build will feature the last mechanical ultegra group (r8000) and I have already gotten some duplicate key parts thinking future proofing.

On the other hand that will open up the market a bit for Rene Herse, Rivndell and Velo-orange, (and in more modern looking stuff Ingrid) for crankset, brakes and even deraillers and Maybe Campy if they retain mechanical and rim brakes

himespau 

The concern about disk brakes is that they can't be mounted on older frames, not that there's something inherrently bad about them.

Electronic can be retrofit to older frames unlike disk brakes, right?

El Chaba

In my view, there are two admittedly broad categories of interest in classic and vintage bikes. The first is the collection and or riding of the best equipment and in the best possible condition of what was available at some point in the past. Extra points are given for equipment examples that represent a particular height point for the craft or a particular craftsman ( or company) . The second category recognizes the value that is represented by quality machinery that doesn’t command a market premium by being the most current or doesn’t fall into some other category as the one mentioned previously that would cause the equipment to command a premium. I think these two sides of the vintage market rise and fall for separate reasons….sometimes in unison, and sometimes separately. In the first category, if the equipment in question is rare and swanky enough, the market doesn’t move much at all…except upward. You just don’t see the price of things like like 1960s Cinellis, 1970s Masis or DeRosas or 50th anniversary Campy groups do anything but move upward.

cudak888 

Many Dutch city bicycles have cartridge-style bottom brackets fit into the frame with a pair of press-fit cups, long before someone made a high-zoot, expensive, and trendy one for modern road bikes. It's nothing new, just difficult to find information about in English as BB's are called trapassen or trapas over there.

Face it, there have been non-standard approaches long before now, we just accepted them when we learned about them for the first time. I have nothing against the new stuff - unless the manufacturer refuses to publish the documents necessary to repair it or sell the tools to service it. Only then does a brand earn a middle finger salute. Double middle finger salute if they offer some sort of self-service but make it exceedingly difficult and tedious in a direct effort to discourage self-service (yes, this is a jab at Apple).

For the record, most mechanics usually knock out these press-fit jobs with something to protect the end of the spindle and a sledge. Bearing raceways? We don't care abound no stinking bearing raceways!

-Kurt

xiaoman1 

It's DOWN in my neck of the woods.............
Best Ben

AdventureManCO 

Was spending time with the kiddos today casually along a bike/walking path and thought I'd count the ratio of e-bikes. 40%.

That is a HUGE market share. Those are people that are out on bikes, but likely are no longer part of the market for traditional bicycles, let along vintage lugged road bikes. They may have not been anyway, regardless of the e-bikes or not, but for sure there is now no reason to hang on to that old 10 speed in the garage. I think interest in e-bikes is going to continue to grow and capture more of the market.

I will continue to enjoy these older classic beauties. The idea that less people may desire them in no way diminishes my enjoyment of them! And now they may be even cheaper. I can't believe what kind of value you can get for the price. The depreciation is real (at least for the large majority). As many here have already mentioned (and I agree), beauty and classic lines are timeless, whether it is a Jaguar E-type or a De Rosa. The more generations that see the same thing and say 'Wow, that is beautiful' the more it is reinforced for these items of a well-regarded aesthetic.

I got to ride on two vintage Treks today. What an amazing day it's been.

squirtdad

to me disc brakes are a look I don't want and but I am happy to put dual pivot on vintage

but disc brakes are not really compatible with older frames especially forks. There is a reason current disc brakes and hubs are thru axle

as to electronic retrofit, first you have to want electronic....I personally don't

but beyond that it is a big of kludge for Shimano Di2 on bikes not designed to route the various cable and battery, less so Sram with it's full wireless

RiddleOfSteel

The increase in popularity of vintage MTBs and/or their aesthetic is interesting to see, mostly seen on sites like The Radavist. Good on a group of people liking the old stuff and working with it, much like many of us road-biased guys have done with road and touring models over the years. No vintage MTB ever looked good in any size that attempted to cater to my height, so accommodating touring bikes remain my friend, for which I am grateful.

cudak888 

Ooh. An opportunity for blatant one-upmanship!





Horsing around aside, for those who find this thread by Google and by chance are seeking answers, here's a few IDs for the ones listed in mstateglfr's pic:

Bicycle Research remover is the CT-3 for some Maillard freewheels.
No-Name Splined 1 is an Atom freewheel remover.
No-Name Splined 2 is a Phil Wood remover for Atom freewheels. Much better than No-Name Splined 1, as it has has the thinnest walls of any Atom freewheel remover and will clear many axle nuts that the other tool will not. EASILY confused with a Zeus freewheel remover, be careful (there's a Zeus remover next to the CT-3 in my pic if you're looking for quick reference).
No-Name Splined 3 removes some really early Shimano freewheels, if I am not mistaken. IIRC, I don't even have this tool in my considerable collection of freewheel removers as I've really never came across one of these.
Recessed Two-Prong is a proper Regina freewheel remover
Modified Two-Prong is what you do to a Park Suntour two-prong when you can't get your fingers on Recessed Two-Prong. Involves at least half an hour of cursing at Park Tools.
Var 188 as shown here is a remover for Cyclo freewheels, and this is the correct/original version of the tool. it's the one that everyone thinks they're getting when they buy the new Var RL-18800, which now has notches too large to fit the Cyclo freewheels.

-Kurt

clongwill

Really on the mark observations.