carleton

My favorite comment so far:

carleton

I think the question is about the range of motion in the lifts. For example, we can all squat more weight if we aren't required to go down "ass to grass" and engage our hamstrings via Lombard's Paradox.

So, yes, the weight does move up and down, but the range of motion is much shorter.

There are plenty of people who do half-squats with high weights but couldn't do a fraction of that weight if they were required to have thighs parallel to the ground.

The same is being argued with this bench press style. Wide grip means that the bar starts lower. Artificially pushed-up chest means that the touch occurs higher. Not to mention that rotating the torso makes the lift less of a bench press and more of a decline press, which is a different lift.

It's not cheating, but it is exploiting. In a sport where winning and losing is separated by very small amounts, this is significant. One estimate said that it can add 18kg/40lbs to some people's bench press. I've read interviews of some top athletes and I gather that at this point, it's a "I train conventional but compete using the arch. I do it because everyone else does it and I have to do it to keep up" kind of thing. Sound familiar?

I'm surprised that the IPF hasn't made a rule about this. My guess is that they encountered a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" scenario. I read that they couldn't mandate that the lower back be flat on the bench because some athletes have big butts that raise the lower backs off of the bench.

One thing I found interesting is that the bar lands on the chest wherever the chest is. So, if a man or woman has abnormally large pecks/breasts, then they effectively lower the range of motion significantly when compared to a competitor with a much less deep chest. So, the playing field isn't exactly level to start with.

Jctc

Just wondering what people's thoughts are as regard to training blocks in gym
Should you be following a strict program of hypertrophy strength and then power or should you (as advised in article from an Australian national coach) work on a blend of all 3 with maybe 2 seis hypertrophy early in year and 1 strength fading towards 2 strength and 1 hypertrophy mid training year and then add power to the mix as closer to training goal whilst still not going into a power only prog.
Interested to hear thoughts and sorry if has been discussed in thread before I couldn't find it

KraneXL

I figured that out long ago. Mostly because I'm so bad at the bench press and wanted to know why. I eventually recognized that guys who were able to press a lot of weight had two things in common:

1) A large rib cage/chest
2) Relatively short arms

Combining those two, you could simply say they have a small chest width to arm length ratio. Unlike someone like myself who has extremely long (Gibbon) arms and a very small rib cage.

In order for the bar to touch my chest my upper arms would be nearly vertical at the bottom -- at their weakest position. Conversely, those who are stronger at the bench press have upper arms positions almost horizontal with the bar touching their chest -- a position where they are much stronger.

Last but not least, the range of motion (ROM). Shorter arms plus taller chest means a lot less distance to push the weight from top to bottom. Its the same with all weight training, but especially the pressing movements. The longer your limbs the more work and harder it is to perform.

topflightpro

That's a great point Krane.

I have similar issues. I'm very long-limbed for my height. (I have no torso. If I wear pants on my waist, I look like an old man. It's sad really.) The longer limbs also affect my deadlifts and squats.



On another note, does anyone have any advice for bulking up, cleanly? I'm incredibly lanky. I'm able to lift a decent amount of weight given my build, but I'd really like to bulk up a little bit. No matter how much I lift or eat, I just cannot seem to put on any mass.

taras0000

Most people who mention that don't realize how little they are eating. Obviously I can't weigh in on your dietary habits, but it is a common problem when it comes to hardgainers. Most people don't realize how hard it is to eat that much food. There are many people out there who are pretty lean and athletic, but don't have a high a metabolism as they may think. They are led to think they have a high metabolism because it's hard for them to put on weight. Weight gain and body composition are affected by more than just calories in VS calories burnt, namely gut environment,hormonal response, and the foods eaten. Often times people think they have a high metabolism, but in reality, they have an optimal gut environment, and consume the right foods in the right amounts, and they've been like this for a very long time. They are lean, trim, and fit, and don't have to work at being that way, so it's easy to make the assumption that they have a high metabolism. More often, the case is that they have a normal metabolic rate, they just don't eat junk, self regulate food intake well, and have a good gut environment.

The problem comes when these same people want to muscle up a little. They are such efficient digesters that they haven't needed lots of calorie to this point. Weightlifting consumes tons of calories, and people think that they are eating enough to not just keep up, but have an excess. Three months into their weight program, they are stumped as to why they aren't putting on weight because they ARE eating more. The problem is, they aren't eating enough. What's their problem? Remember that bit about self regulating calories? That's what they are doing. They have been eating what they need for years, and no more. Now they are needing more calories, so they consume more calories, but the internal regulatory mechanisms kick in and they stop once they've had enough. And because force feeding yourself is uncomfortable, they think they are eating enough because of that discomfort, not realizing that once that discomfort subsides you have to eat again.

So the problem comes when one wants to make changes to their diet, as our brains and bodies like when things stay "normal". Our bodies are pretty finely tuned to what and how much goes into it. Our hormonal system reacts to what, when, and how much we eat, and these hormones have certain effects on body and brain. Changes to these aspects of diet cause resultant changes in body and mind, and we subconsiously make changes to these ratios to get back to our "normal". This is why it's so hard to lose weight, because our hormonal feedback loop communicates with so many aspects of our biology, and they are all interrelated. Trying to "normalize"things by tweaking one or two things doesn't bring back your bodies "balance".

On another not, if you have a high metabolism, putting on muscle can be easy as long as you are eating enough. In fact, it's the best type of metabolism for building muscle. It is much easier to add calories and thrive than it is to reduce them and be in a good place (physically and mentally). A faster metabolism breaks food down faster, repairs the body faster, and allows one to either workout more often, or harder on the same schedule. More workout due to faster recovery, or more strenuous workouts on the same schedule will result in faster gains.

So if you're not gaining weight, you need to eat more, or if you really can't eat more, cut back on calorie expenditure.

jfiveeight

On days when i have to play catch up my signature move is to make a pound of chicken and top it with greek yogurt as an after dinner snack.

carleton

Gaining weight is a common topic on powerlifting, weightlifting, and bodybuilding forums. There are no shortage of protocols (and opinions) on the topic.

I've read that the easiest way for one to put on weight is to "Drink your calories.", as in whey protein and/or whole milk. "GOMAD" is a common term referring to drinking a Gallon Of Milk A Day. Milk is mentioned in Starting Strength. Rippetoe says that, for novice lifters (that would be most of us), the effects of drinking copious amounts whole milk are no different than that of taking steroids.

Not that he (or I) would advise taking steroids. He's just saying that that is how effective milk is combined with "newb gains" that everyone experiences for the first 2-3 years of dedicated lifting. He thinks any other supplements (including whey) are a waste of money (IIRC). You simply need lots of calories.

He even goes so far to say that any calories will work...including McDonald's. When trying to gain mass, McDonald's calories get processed and turned into muscle like anything else.

carleton

I'm not recommending this, just providing info. I've never used this program:

https://stronglifts.com/gomad/

taras0000

If I drank a gallon of milk a day I would have to GOMAD to the bathroom.

KraneXL

I agree with most of the above but there are some omissions. For one, the greatest influence on your metabolism (nutrient absorption and utilization) is your hormones. Manipulate those and the rest will follow. Thing is, nothing is that simple and the body is a very complex organism. Manipulate one thing and imbalance another.

Anyway, eating more calories will eventually make you gain weight. If you exercise vigorously you will also gain muscle, but most of the weight gain will be fat. Only the hormonal manipulation can change that.I can and have drank as much as a gallon of milk/day with virtually no abdominal discomfort. Milk is great, in fact, its probably the world's single most perfect food. I drink about 8-16/day. However, there are limitations to everything.

carleton

In my 20s, I had a roommate that did that. He made whey protein shakes a couple of times a day in the kitchen (was my first time hearing about whey).,..but he never worked out. So, he just got puffier and puffier, hahahahaha.

KraneXL

"I was your roommate." The likeness of him anyway. Although it was during my time in the service not college. And I remember your kind -- the wiseguy roommates that made fun of me and my daily weight gainers/protein shakes. In the end all I got was a lot of gas and bloating. That's how I know how these things work. I've tried all of them.

Doge

Maybe only 30% track related. I'm a dad. My kid weight trained from age 14 and still does. Coach 1 was a body builder. Current trainer trains many track riders. The routines are similar. The timing is not, for a variety of reasons.

<18 lived in SoCal and racing was all year - USA and Europe. There was no down time to get big. The frequency of training the whole body was high and focus more on strength and endurance, never mass.
Then there were 20-30 hour training weeks (4 lifting, extra 4 sleeping).

Now living where there is snow and being 20, most of the time is gym. Junior went from 140lbs to 165lbs in 2 years, with visual same body composition. W/kg is lower. Endurance is lower. Power is up.
I follow several of the juniors, now riding for USA on endurance track. I talk to their dads, share the same training coach. In general there is block training, but that is more driven by the seasonal competition. Most of these "kids" are multi-cycling discipline, and do MTB, RR, Track. And the cycling takes priority over the lifting.

I am watching to see what seems to work best, I don't know. For long RR stuff (I know this is a track forum) the added mass and time off the bike does not help at all. On track - still not sure. Something about miles in legs and strength training (over mass) seems better.

carleton

Hi, Doge,

Any chance we can hear from your son on how it works instead of from you? We only know of your son through you and we only know of how successful things are (or not) for your son through you.

I'd rather hear directly from him as the athlete that's actually doing the things that you write about. I'd like to hear his opinion, not the opinion of his parent...which can be significantly different.

SOURCE: I am a son.

Doge

If you want PM me and I'll send you his email and phone number, you can contact him.

Otherwise, very unlikely as I doubt he has ever posted on any forum. If there was a coaches/manager thread I'd be happy to go there.

I'm the one buying and paying for it and managing it - and logging it and recording it.

A dad exchanging the ideas should not be weird. For every pro road rider there are several behind them.

And while fewer seem to be involved in track, it seems similar for the elite track riders.


It is in the feed zones and track pits I'm talking with the dads and the trainers of the track racers, not the racers. Those dads can tell me the power, speed suits brand, latest aero testing results, training plans of a dozen or so in the discipline. If I want to know where to get a Lexi speed suit - or how to spell it, or who trains Ashton, or Colby I don't ask a rider. I ask a dad.

Baby Puke

Dads race, too, sometimes. Source: I'm a dad.

carleton

I have never in my life asked a grown man or woman’s parents something that I wanted to know about that person.

Oh well.

Doge

You may have missed the part I posted about knowing about half a dozen or so others too.
Cycling is one of the rarer sports where the athlete, spends time posting about themselves.

Sorry, for the off topic posting defense of why I post on-topic, although I am not the athlete. I was just trying to be helpful as spending well into six figures on sports, I've learned a bit.

Here is a typical sports forum Socal Soccer I had spent a bunch of time on. It is hard to find a player posting anywhere. There are similar in volleyball, track all the NCAA sports.

ToddTheBod

TBF, the "8 days in a week" is an all time HOF candidate for best internet threads ever created. We all should aspire to such greatness

KraneXL

Well Planet Fitness started in 1992 but maybe there wasn't a franchise near you at the time. Anyway, they're everywhere now. And at basic membership of $10/mo. Nobody can use the excuse they can't afford a gym membership anymore. What else you got?

Speaking of squats, I still haven't gotten back to them due to my lower back being in rehab. Nevertheless, I have been increasing the weight on the machine steadily. So if I continue to progress, hopefully, I'll be back squatting by summers end.

The Griffith Observatory climb without bonking is my goal by then. The last time I tried it, not only was I completely winded but my quad were on fire.

ToddTheBod

The Rogue/Pendlay Do-Wins are some of the olympic weight lifting shoes that run wide. If you're looking for a flat and not-heeled lifting shoe, in a similar vein to the Converse, skating boarding shoes are another option that are flat and wider.

ToddTheBod

There's a lot of good stuff in here. Something to think about if you're serious about gaining weight and want to do so "cleanly" is that you might be significantly aided using an app or program to track calories. MyFitnessPal used to be good but now it's bloated and sucks.

Secondly, most people are probably familiar with bodybuilding style "bulk and cut" schemes where bodybuilders gain significant fat and muscle and then diet to lose the fat. This is because their goal is to get huge and they're willing to accept gaining fat to gain as much muscle as possible. If you're not interested in this, you're going to probably want to shoot for something like 500-1000 extra calories a day, which works out to about 1-2 lbs per week. Also, if you've been eating at maintenance, you'll gain a bunch of weight right away when you start eating more because your muscles will fill up with glycogen, and it requires ~3g of water to store 1 g of glycogen.

Another thing you need to keep in mind is that the best way to gain muscle, and really recover from working out in general, is to spread your protein intake out throughout the day, in smaller 20-40g servings. If you eat little to no protein at all throughout the day and then eat 150g at dinner, your body is going to only absorb about 30-40g of that protein as protein and it's going to turn the rest into sugar/fat, and you'll excrete the excess nitrogen out.

It takes a big spike of leucine to stimulate muscle protein synthesis. Leucine is one of the BCAAs, but it's also really common in all complete proteins. So you can skip the BCAA drinks and such as long as your protein intake is sufficient.

KraneXL

Actually, the debate is still ongoing to that, as there is no consensus at this point between the process of absorption and utilization. While your body might be able to absorb all of the protein you ingest in any single meal, it may not all be utilize in the manner intended.

I tend to agree more with understanding since there is only so much digestive enzyme present for building and storage at any given time.

carleton

I'm also on the hunt for a good calorie tracking app. As Todd mentions, My Fitness Pal used to be amazing at this. I used it for years. Then Under Armour bought them and it went to crap. I reinstalled it about a year ago and was like, "WTF is going on??"

If anyone can recommend a good app that isn't bloated, please pass it on.