g-funk

very true. currently the Schwinn makes me smile. but crashing the Raleigh into a lake with the kids in the trailer was fun too. All hail the magnificent Burley Trailer.

USAZorro

Only one comment/question about the initial pros and cons.

The Raleigh cottered cranks are a pain to work on, but is having the Ashtabula crank really a pro for the Schwinn? Besides, with the Raleigh, you get three herons right there on your chainring.

I have to recuse myself from the comparisons though. My uncle had a bicycle shop, and growing up, he always sold Raleighs, and never sold Schwinns (there was already a Schwinn dealer in the city when my uncle started his shop, and he was too honorable a man to try to take the other shop's business like that). Consequently, I've never ridden a Schwinn three speed - although I do have my uncle's old Superbe.

g-funk

The Ashtabula crank is definitely a pro: replaceable chainring, easily serviceable BB, Crome-moly, HUGE bearings, NO COTTERS

besides this decal trumps the herons

Sixty Fiver

I have owned and still own a number of Raleigh's and although I have never owned a Schwinn I have had the opportunity to work on and ride a good number of Schwinns.

I found that compared to my Raleigh's the Schwinn's felt tank like although their ride quality is very good... I have never considered cottered cranks to be all that bothersome but I do work on cottered bikes a lot.

I recently sold my 1978 Superbe as I replaced it with the mother of all 3 speed cruisers... a 1948 Rudge roadster (which was built by Raleigh).

It's a much lighter bike than the Superbe and I have never ridden a smoother or more comfortable bicycle... and besides being quite charming it's still a fairly fast bike

mswantak

OMG, yes -- the Ashtabula crank is vastly preferable to the Raleigh cottered crank. I can yank an Ashtabula in under five minutes with nothing but a pair of channel locks.

You may get three herons, but they're facing the wrong way. With a Schwinn crank, you get four omnidirectional rings.

Road Fan

The 1954 has the Schwinn tubular forks, which are really stiff. As part of the parts collecting someone gave me a newer Schwinn flat fork, and it was not nearly so good.

Slack geometry is neither a pro or a con, depending on how it contributes to the ride experience and what you prefer. I see now you're primarily talking about old bike servicability and visual coolness as your metrics, not so much the ride experience. But there's really a long distance from the zippiness (no I will not define that) of the Brit roadsters and what we'd call a twitchy bike.

Test riding my friend's '54 Schwinn I felt the front wheel was WAAYYYY out there.

Dunno if all steel is a pro or con in this type of bike, either. I 'm not decided if Weinmann side-pulls are easier to maintain than English ones. This set was very easy to center, but I had to R/R one of the handles and it was a PAIN to replace and I had to work hard to find a replacement for a stripped nut - those darn special fasteners again. There's definitely flex in the brake response, even after I squared and ferruled the old cables. I think this is due to the Weinmann caliper flexing. I've gotten spoiled by my Campy NR/SRs and Centaur dual-pivots.

Road Fan

I am REAL impressed by the Schwinn's big bearings!

KLW2

Not to inject another brand but how do the Columbia Sport III bikes from the late 60s and early 70s stack up?

mike

Yes, the rake (the sweep and forward position of the fork) difference is really noticeable between the Raleigh and the Schwinn. The shorter and tighter rake of the Raleigh makes it handle faster and is why some people say the Raleigh is more nimble than the Schwinn.

The Schwinn had more rake - an elongation of the geometry you could say. This helped give the Schwinn the luxurious smooth ride that it is famous for, but as you pointed out, makes in a bit lumbering in it's handling.

I always thought that the reason the Raleigh had a shorter rake was to give it better handling on the congested city streets of England and Europe. At least, that is my fantasy thinking. I imagine the streets of post-war England filled with bicycle commuters on their Raleigh uprights noodling around boxy taxicabs, tall red buses, and smartly dressed pedestrians with umbrellas.

USAZorro

I was actually asking that less as a comparison between the two, but as a bike in general having them - vice a cotterless 3-piece crankset for example. Then I completely muddied the waters by bring the herons into the comparison.

FlatTop

I'd guess closer to the Schwinn than the Raleigh. And they had S-A 3-speed hubs too, up until the '70s I think.

Since the name Columbia was associated with bicycles since the early years, it's kind of fitting that it gets a mention with the other two brands in this thread.

jungwiar

This is a great thread and one of those that makes me keep coming back to this site. I personally love the ride of this style of bike - whether a Raleigh or Schwinn or whatever. I currently own a '73 Raleigh Sports and a '74 Schwinn Suburban (I know - not a 3-speed) and love them both although give the nod to the Raleigh classic looks and feel. I also ride as my daily commuter a "3 Speedized" (ok - it has an internal 8 and no chain guard) all chrome Schwinn Voyageur 11.8 that is a great ride also... I agree with one of the earlier posts about owning them all and not having to make the choice!

Sixty Fiver

Rake ?

Road Fan

Got Rake?

I knew I should have measured the Schwinn geometry more thoroughly before giving the lady her bike back!

Road Fan

SirMike1983 

I agree about the Ashtabula being easier to work on. They can be a pain though, since not all Ashtabula cranks are the same. There is a misconception that there exist only two types of ashtabula cranks: 24 tpi and 28 tpi. In reality each manufacturer varied the spacing and style of their cranks a bit. Don't assume that buying "generic 28 tpi crank" will fix your Schwinn bike, or that generic 24 tpi will fix your old Columbia. Different manufacturers made their cranks to different specs and even if you have a thread match, the shaping and milling in how the sprocket with sit along with other spacing issues may prevent it from working properly.

I recently saw this with a new crank I tried to swap into a 1950 Columbia. The modern crank was a "generic" 24 tpi crank. The threading was okay, but the milling where the sprocket was to go rendered it unusable in the Columbia. I actually had to locate and buy an original early '50s Columbia crank to finish the fix- the Columbia cranks had a different set up in terms of the manufacturing where the sprocket was to go.

The point of this is that Ashtabula is easier than cotters as a general matter, BUT if you have to replace an Ashtabula crank then it can turn out to be the opposite if you have a crank that doesn't swap with the generic stuff that's out there now. At that point you're stuck trying to find original replacement parts. This may or may not be a hassle, depending on what you're looking for.

graywolf

Actually, I never had any problems with cottered cranks, before they were welded in place by 50 years worth of rust that is. If a ten year old could deal with them, anyone can deal with them.

ogbigbird

bottom line, quality would have to go with the raleigh. ride comfort to the schwinn though. the raleigh does fell a little to upright for me, now that it was mentioned. not bad, just unfamilur.

mike

Oh yeah, there you go! Swoosh! Love it.

For those of you who never noticed, peer over your handlebars and see how much of your wheel sticks forward. You might be surprised as you mount different bikes how different the wheel position is.

SirMike1983 

That's the first thing I notice when swapping from a Raleigh Sports to a Raleigh DL-1 or an American balloon tire-- the fact that the front wheel is way out in front.

The first thing I notice going back to the Raleigh is not how close the front wheel is, but how vertical the frame is-- mine is a 23 inch frame. The Sports sort of feels like "riding while sort of standing up" whereas the DL-1 and the balloon tires are more like "sit back and reach forward".

The Sports has a nimble, quick feel to it-- takes right off. The DL-1 has more of a slow feel to it, and the turning is slower. The balloon tire bikes occupy a feel all their own-- cushy, heavy, and ponderous. They don't "take right off" at all- rather they have a very slow build to speed.

Going downhill I feel like the Sports is an extension of my legs. On the road, the short, tall frame is easy to get used to, feeling as if you're sort of "jogging" almost. The DL-1 down hill is a little more removed-- you know the bicycle is a separate entity. It displays good stability though and handles bumps downhill well. Braking quality is fairly poor-- they remind me of the old non-power drum brakes on the cars I had back when. The balloon tire is like riding atop a granite boulder-- it has a mind of its own downhill and accelerates frighteningly fast. It is quite stable, but you can't let the speed get away from you-- it accelerates quickly downhill, but braking needs to be done well in advance of your target stop point. They generally only have a single coaster brake for stopping, so you learn to "cycle" it so as not to overheat it.

I love each for its own feel. If I had to "tour" with one bike or go long distances, I'd choose the sports though-- it's at home going longer distances for me.

Road surface matters. The Sports is "wobbly" and dances about on dirt roads with little round stones on top. The C+O canal towpath is a good example- the Sports is problematic on these surfaces because the tires struggle with the little round stones and uneven surface. Wet cobblestones (like we had in Georgetown) are awful. Smooth pavement is a joy though.

The DL-1 handles these surfaces much better. The large tires are a little friendlier to getting around the little round stones. The DL-1 also performs better on cobblestones. It does well on all surfaces.

The balloon tire bikes are monsters on these surfaces-- they eat them for breakfast. You can see why they were prototypes for the early mountain bikes. You do get some rolling friction on pavement though.

Sixty Fiver

On my Rudge my hands are actually behind the front wheel and it is akin to sitting and resting one's hands on their lap... the bike does not know what a bump is.

rudypyatt

Ah, they joys of searching zombie threads. Good info.

photogravity

+1. I think I just restarted a moribund, if not zombie, thread just this evening.

Sixty Fiver

It is not a fair comparison as the Paramount was a custom made item whereas the Sports was a production level frame, the Paramount is 531 with Nervex lugs and the Sports is high carbon steel with stock Raleigh lugs.

The chromed sports models are very rare and believe they were produced for special circumstances like long service awards and promotions.

And since I am in a disagreeable mood...

Most of the Sports models were jut that and the Superbe was actually placed a tier higher alongside the Tourist as a deluxe model and for every Superbe there are hundreds of Sports models.

So... in a head to head comparison between a Sports and an EF framed Schwinn I I have to show my bias and give the win to the Raleigh as although the Schwinns are solid they are also tanks compared to the Sports which was no lightweight at 36 pounds. The Raleigh steel brakes work quite well when you have the right brake pads and are not as flexy as the aluminium brakes on Schwinns.

Back in the day any bike shop could have serviced the cottered crank, Raleigh bearing assemblies are excellent, and the ride quality defines what a roadster should feel like.

Schwinn also had to use a Raleigh / SA drive...

I do not own a Schwinn but have some experience working on them and they are pretty simple (a plus) but have seen countless Raleigh Sports (and own 3 of them) and find that they really were built to last 100 years.

This is not to say that after the zombie apocalypse that the only thing left will be cockroaches, EF Schwinns... and Raleigh Sports.

1954... with some upgrades to bring it down to a middleweight.



1950... stock.



1975 Sports... with new old vintage rims.

Sixty Fiver

No worries... gives me a chance to reload some images.

Sixty Fiver

And... it is all hallows eve.

tcs

During the golden age of these bikes, Schwinn offered "all-American" versions with Bendix 2-speed hubs.