SactoDoug

I do admit that I envy those of you who can carry. It is next to impossible to get a CCW here in Kalifornia. If I could, I would carry also.

irclean

That's the one! Thanks. If you're reading this thread, JT, maybe you can share some insight from your first-hand experience.

In 2007 the homicide rate for the city of Toronto was 3.3 per 100,000 people, yet for Detroit it was 33.8 per 100,000. Two large (populations ~ 5,000,000) metropolitan North American cities separated by a two-hour drive... yet worlds apart. I'm glad I don't feel the need to carry a gun and I feel sorry for those who do.

electrik

Meh, Detroit probably takes the cake - even among american cities. I do know of somebody who commutes on a bicycle there and doesn't carry a pistol. I bet areas like the jungle in Toronto, rexdale/malton are up there also. Maybe it's not city wide... but there are ghettos around here. In fact, ghettos abound - though not all extremely violent.

Titmawz

+1 and also people in those neighborhoods are cool as hell

TimeTravel_0

LOL @ carrying a gun while bike commuting...sound advice from people that dont live anywhere near urban areas infested with gang activity. As someone that grew up on the west side of Chicago, I can tell you that if you flashed your gun, you'd have a bullet in your head before you could pull the trigger yourself. I'd rather avoid areas where firearms would be necessary...I love riding but not so much as to risk being shot/beaten, killing others, or possibly spending time in prison. F that.

stdlrf11

I have to laugh at some of these comments. I'm amazed at how many people don't know anything about gun fighting. Most of what you have learned is from crappy movies. Its probably best that you don't carry if you really think you are supposed to flash your piece and scare the bad guys away. The first time your opponent is supposed to know you have a gun is when they realize they have been shot. Any fool that pulls a piece and talks some s#!* will wind up dead... because they are a moron and that is nature's way of cleaning the gene pool. Its the same with the thought that gangsters can take your gun away from you. I teach officers how to shoot and I've got to tell you, if someone was able to take your gun away from you, you made a lot of big mistakes. Carrying isn't for everyone, and I respect that, but don't belittle others who choose to because they actually know what they are doing. And people who don't know anything about guns for whatever reason, whether its because they have never been around them, live in areas where they aren't legal to carry or whatever other reason, have nothing of value to add to the conversation.

As with anything else, if you don't know what you are talking about, its best to shut the hell up. How does that saying go? "Its best to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it?"

KD5NRH

Exactly; at least get your information from good movies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUslGSoEH8I

colleen c

Trying not to open a new can of worms here, but my couriosity got the better of me. One thing that very seldom get mention in threads like this is the choice of carrying a Taser. Why is that? Cost?

I carry a C2 taser that does not ressemble a gun or firearm unlike the M26C or X26C. I have it expose accidently at times on my waist and folks on the train don't flinch or panic. My second backup unit is in a more concealment holster. I can walk with it in my palm and not many folks will know what it is. It is great for a single attacker or two if you carry two unit. For any additional person, you can still have the option of Pepper spray for the rest.

Please don't get me wrong in thinking I am anti-gun and all that other crap. My ex boyfriend used to be a gun fanatic and taught me to shoot DA, SA semi Auto, revolver, 45, 40, 9, 357, and 44(ouch). He also talk me to shoot 30-06(ouch to my shoulder), 5.56, buck and 1.25 oz slugs (double ouch). Still, even with all that practice etc, I would be very hesitant to shoot someone unless it is beyond all reasonable doubts. By that time it will be too late anyway. I think.

The thought of the use of my Taser is different knowing that I won't be harming any one permanently except with that slight chance as with any other non lethal self defense weapon. I find it much more comfy to know that I can give one warning and use the taser rather than wait till it is absolutely needed as with the case of a lethal firearm. Then off course there is always that surprise where they already pull a gun on you before you even saw them, but in that case, it too late for anything but just give them what they want and hopefully to walk away counting your blessing.

Edit:
I think I know exactly where you are talking about here. I had a friend where a bunch of guys used to piss in beer bottle and throw it at them west of the train station passed the underpass. Horrible area.

myrridin

Wasn't aware that Kalifornia allowed the carry of even tasers. I know the rules on pepper spray there are very restrictive. Only real problem with a taser is that if you need to use it, it is a life and death situation, which will leave your attacker momentarily stunned and then po'd. Better than nothing, which is the only other real option in Kalifornia.

KD5NRH

Cost, capacity (only one shot, two with the more expensive ones - what do you do if there's another attacker?) and there are people who can resist the shock well enough to break the wires. If that happens, you're now unarmed and facing a really mad attacker.

LeeG

if your goal is to get through the bad neighborhood then riding is the way to do it. If you're talking about weapons you're no longer riding.

colleen c

We're lucky so far that we can unlike the fact it is impossible to get ccw permit. There is that 2.5oz pepper spray restrction per bottle along with that safety label thing. That's why I have two pepper spray instead of one along with two taser. I figure I can incapcitate them for 30 second giving me time to spray them before gettng the heck out of there. That would be hard for a single attacker to go after me when the stun is off.

For everything else there is my pepper spray and the second taser in case the spray did not work on one person.

Oh yes, some don't know this, but the taser does have a backup drive stun mode in case the probe failed.

tjspiel

Just curious. The muggings that have occurred on my routes have involved 2 or 3 guys. They hide behind bridge abutments or whatever. One knocks the unsuspecting cyclist from his/her bike and the other 2 will jump on top of the rider after they hit the ground. There might be some punching and kicking and at least one cyclist had a knife held to their throat. Mostly the muggers took wallets, and purses. They'd generally leave the bike. These have all occurred at night.

Could a largely untrained gun owner deal with the situation effectively? What would a trained one do? It seems to me if you carry the gun on your bike, you're pretty well screwed anyway. On your person, you have a chance, but the muggers may find it.

There was a rash of these a couple of years ago. They've pretty much stopped since they were highly publicized and volunteer patrols started on the affected trails. People were also told to ride with a buddy.

paul2432

Re Guns: What do you do when it is cold? Say, "hold on a second while a take off my gloves and get out my gun?"

Paul

clancy98

many guns can be operated with gloves on. like bicycles.

AdamDZ

Just find a detour, if possible....

SactoDoug

No weapon is perfect is all situations and if they get the drop on you, then you are at a severe disadvantage. The rider has the advantage of knowing that he has a gun and knows where the gun is. In the situation that you describe, if the rider pulls his gun and shoots one of the goons as they are punching and kicking him, then they are not going to stick around to see how many more bullets he has. If just one rider had done that, all of the muggings would have stopped immediately. Criminals are not dumb. They are not going to risk their lives over trying to mug someone.

Also, anyone that has a CCP is going to be trained on how to use their gun. Every CCP application that I have seen has a mandatory safety and usage class.

Seattle Forrest

If you're not comfortable or having fun, then it's a no-go. That's the rule. I go kayaking a lot, and sometimes with a friend who enjoys rough waves. I have a dry suit and lots of experience with self-rescue, but I don't enjoy it, so I don't do it. Other people might think I'm a wuss, but that won't do anything if I capsize and have to pull myself out of 40 degree water. Moral of the story: change your route if you feel you need to.

On the other hand, I doubt anyone is interested in jacking you for your bike. And since almost everyone in this country seems to think that a person would only ride a bike because they can't afford a car, I don't think you're going to be much of a target. Gangs seem to be about making money, mostly by selling drugs. You can ride faster than anyone can run, and if you don't get involved in the drug trade, you're probably just background noise, like all the cars driving through.

It's OK to run a stop sign or red light if you're in a bad area and your spider sense is going off.

lucille

If you don't feel safe, change the route. I wouldn't ride through rough or secluded areas, I'd rather take the bus.

All this gun talk is freaking me out! I can't imagine carrying any kind of weapon.

tjspiel

Night patrols and greater rider awareness have made substantial reductions in incidents but they still happen and I'd bet they'd still happen even if a mugger got shot. Might make them more pre-cautious. Might just mean they carry themselves which apparently some already do.

What sort of training though? Boy scouts get trained on how to shoot guns and in archery. Shooting on a range is an entirely different thing than finding yourself in a situation like this. IMO a knife could be a much better weapon, but again, you need to know what to do and have the presence of mind to do it.

I really doubt a "safety and usage" class is going to adequately prepare somebody for the scenario I've described. I can't really think of too many likely scenarios that I would be able to use a gun while riding except if I were to come upon somebody else being mugged. In that event yelling that the cops are on their way (from a safe distance) could be just as effective and not nearly as risky.

There are people who could handle themselves well with a gun in situations like the above. I think they're in the minority however, and the advice to "Get a Glock" falls short IMO.

SactoDoug

It isn't combat training, though a lot of gun owners are ex-military and ex-law enforcement. It is usually training to get gun owners familiar with their weapons and to get them accustomed to it.

People who carry are very familiar with their guns. They typically shoot them regularly. They are used to having it strapped to their body for many hours a day. It becomes automatic to be able to draw the gun if needed.

Yes, new CCP owners will be a bit awkward with their guns, but those are the exceptions and not the rule with most people who have CCPs.

norskagent

I useually ride at above average (but not top) speed through areas I feel are sketchy (ghetto sprints). That, and the fact my bike is quiet works well, people standing around usually have little time to conceive of something bad as I ride past. I have been bluffed a few times by teens in the street, I speed up and hold my line as I approach, they have always pulled back. Once I had a drugged? woman smack my arm as I rode past, which startled me. Just as that happened a highway patrol car appeared, I flagged him down and told him I was assaulted and rode off, leaving him dealing with her. But by and large most people in the "bad" sections of the city are cool, and are just going about their business.

tjspiel

How do you know? Is there mandatory ongoing training? Is "being comfortable with a gun" while on the ground possibly already hurt and disoriented while being attacked good enough?

SactoDoug

How do I "know"? Because I am a gun owner that regularly shoots my guns. I am familiar with all the guns I own and can operate them in the dark without much thought.

There are many stories of gun owners assaulted in various ways only to retreive their gun and shoot their attacker. It happens in many home invasion robberies.

Here are some stories for you:

Ipswich Chronicle, Ipswich, MA, 7/9/98 State: MA
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/1998
David Ellis, a city councilor for Lynn, Massachusetts, was on his bicycle conducting a midnight crime patrol when he spotted four men harassing an elderly woman in her car. Moving to intervene, Ellis confronted the men, then began to use his cell phone to call for help. The men charged, knocking Ellis off his bike, kicking him in the head and yelling, "Kill him!" Ellis reacted by pulling a .357 Mag. handgun and firing into the group. He then ran to a nearby house and called police. Two of the four were later caught and charged with armed robbery.

The Sentinel, Orlando, FL, 10/18/97
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/1998
Peter Sabatini of Orlando was riding his bicycle one afternoon when he was attacked by a youth armed with what later turned out to be a pellet pistol. The attacker threatened him with the gun and tried to take the bike. Fearing for his life, Sabatini, a carry permit holder, drew his .45 pistol and fatally shot his assailant. The youth had a criminal history.

The Times, Seattle, WA, 4/12/90
State: WA
American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/1990
A Seattle, Wash., man was riding his bicycle when he saw a group of 20 to 30 young people standing along the street. The bicyclist crossed the steet to avoid them, but some of the group pursued and attacked him. They pulled him off the bicycle, knocked him to the ground and continued to beat him. The man drew his registered handgun and shot one of the youths to halt the attack. The wounded attacker, who was identified by police as a teen gang member, fled but was later apprehended by police and charged with assault.

GP

Not true. Look at police officers.