rch427

I've recently run across a brand of frame I've never seen before. The frame was made in Italy by Biemmezeta (in the '80s, I presume) -- the BB shell is marked Cinelli and stamped "BMZ" -- but the headtube, fork crowns, seatstay caps, etc., are all marked "LM", in a distinctive way. Anyone know what "LM" might stand for?

juvela

hello rch427,

the forum just recently had a similar inquiry:

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...now-brand.html

rch427

Thanks for the lead, Juvela.

I guess the main differences -- off the top of my head -- between that frame and this one are that the frame I'm asking about definitely has a Cinelli BB shell, stamped "BMZ", and has Columbus SL decals on it (original to the frame).

There are a couple of other differences that you can't see in my close-up photos: my frame has a fluted seattube (for a shorter wheelbase) and a slot along the side of the toptube for the rear brake cable to run in. It's clearly a pretty high-end frame, but what "LM" might mean, I still have no idea.

gomango

Luigi Montagner

KonAaron Snake 

Could be - I had a Montagner and the markings and head badge were totally different.

juvela

there are some markings in the shell forward of the bmz. are you able to make them out?

rch427

Yes, it's stamped "55" on both sides. I presume that's the diameter of the BB shell.

rch427

Thanks! I figured someone here was bound to know. Great call!

rch427

Well, pretty different, anyway; the fork crown logo is quite similar.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the frame I'm asking about is earlier than yours; I'd say it's from the late-'70s. Do you know when yours was made?

juvela

thanks rch427!

on the adjustable side there are markings which appear to be something other than 55.

on the fixed side there appear to be two markings resembling zeros well ahead of the numeral 5 which can be seen.

also on the fixed side there appears to be a faint numeral 9 following the clear numeral 5. perhaps this refers to the frame size in cms.

KonAaron Snake 

87'.

It's certainly possible, and there is a vague similarity in the headbadge. I think of Montagner as a small frame builder, so him using a sub seems odd.

rch427

A-ha! This clinches it. Searching for more pics of Montagner bikes, I found this:

The seatstay caps are identical to the ones in the bike I'm asking about.

rch427

That's what I thought too Why would he hire BMZ to make frames for him? Still, it does have "BMZ" stamped on the BB shell, and I can't think of any other reason why that would be there.

I wonder if there was a time, early on in his "branding" of himself as a production frame designer, when he needed to have an established shop turn out frames to his spec.?

rch427

Yeah, there are other stamps there. The frame's owner has been...less than communicative in response to my questions. Not sure why...

rch427

The other question that presents itself is -- despite the presence of Columbus decals -- is this frame really made from Columbus tubing, or is it Oria? As I mentioned, the seattube has a fluted section near the BB, so the rear wheel can be further forward than normal, and the toptube has a crease along the side for the rear brake cable. Were these tubes that Columbus supplied? Because I know that Oria made tube-sets with those features, and that many Montagner frames used Oria tube-sets. Thoughts?

unworthy1

very possible, though unusual, that Luigi Montagner had BMZ build early frames for him before he went into full production, and I think yours is an early one. I doubt that it's Oria tubing, most likely Columbus SL and you can check the steerer for rifling in the butt to confirm that guess. I'd aslo guess that any crease, crimps or flattening of the tubes was done by the builder (BMZ in this case) and not as-supplied by the tubing co. A BMZ frame with Montagner's name (if it IS his) is nothing to sneeze at, nice find! BTW My guess it that 55 x 55 are ST and TT measurements.

rch427

Well, in the interest of full disclosure, I haven't actually bought the frame yet. The seller is asking a far higher price than I think is appropriate (just under $1k), despite his not even knowing who made the frame! I wanted to find out who made it before making an offer on it.

Being from the late-'70s or early-'80s (I presume), it's a little past my preferred era in bikes (the '60s), but it's a sweet looking frame in what appears to be original paint (very important to me), it's my size, and I'm a sucker for obscure makers. We'll see if he accepts my offer.

gomango

My bike.

KonAaron Snake 

I like it, but that's not a $1,000 frame IMO.

Citoyen du Monde

The town where Montagner is located, Passarella, in the province of Venice, is the hometown of former world champion Moreno Argentin (He is listed as being born in San Donà because that is where the closest hospital is). It wouldn't surprise me if the bike was built by a third-party builder. I used to work less than 5 miles away from there in the early 90's and nobody spoke about Montagner as being anything special or as a go-to person for custom frames.

rch427

I agree. Even if I had $1,000 to burn, I wouldn't pay that for it; it would just encourage speculation over unidentified frames.

My quandary is, do I tell the seller that it's a Montagner, and that Montagner frames typically sell for a fraction of his asking price -- but risk him re-offering it correctly identified (and inviting competition to my offer), or do I keep mum?

SJX426 

Tell him you did a fair amount of research and you know what it is and are willing to provide the information in return for a discount that represents the FMV.

rch427

How interesting!

Is his surname typical for that area? The name and its pronunciation didn't seem typically Italian to me; I presumed his family might've been from somewhere in the mountainous northwest of Italy -- perhaps Piedmont.

I don't really care about Montagner's relative stature in the Italian framebuilding world; I'd never even heard of him before. AFAIK, Biemmezeta built good frames, Cinelli made good BB shells, Columbus SL is good tubing, the lug shaping and filing is good, it's a nicely finished frame, the geometry looks good to me, it's my size, has nice paint with a nice patina, etc. That adds up to a frame worth building up into a rider. For $1K? Nope. But certainly for a fraction thereof.

rch427

Very nice!

Considering that you are the only Montagner owner I've encountered, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on your bike.

unworthy1

I had one once and flipped it, I thought it was an above average Italiano, but Mr.Maasland has FAR more experience to draw upon than me! There's no way this could fetch $1000 unless the world as we know it has become completely drug-addled...oh, maybe so! You are not risking much by mentioning Montagner's name, he is NOT widely known, and not that collectible. FWIW the scolars may have better historical fact than me, but there were many regions of Italy before unification that were ruled by French monarchs, not to mention Spaniards, Greeks, Africans, Austro-Germans, Swiss, and assorted Middle Easterners, North Africans and Asia Minor-ists. A name like Montagner probably has some French Connection.