Daytime Running Lights - Get Them! Video
#76
Senior Member
I use daytime running lights (front and back) on every ride. I typically ride on secondary and rural roads and feel it is just as important to highlight my presence with those traveling in the opposite direction as behind me. I can think of two instances in the past year where the light caught the attention of drivers who had started to drift into my lane of travel. Just my opinion but I won't ride without them. Everyone has to make their own decision about what is discretionary regarding their safety.
#77
Junior Member
I dress to be seen, but I *assume* that drivers are too blind, distracted, or stupid to see me. Further, I’m constantly scanning my surroundings and imagining the worst thing that someone could do. And preparing my response.
#78
Junior Member
I'm not completely sold on the necessity of daytime riding lights. If you can't see a 6+ ft object, in bright clothing, in your direct field of vision, then you're likely too distracted to see a flashing/solid light. I don't doubt that they can help but I suspect the amount they do is probably minimal in the grand scheme of other safety measures.
#79
However, as a 59yr old lifetime cyclist as well as sports car enthusiast, while driving my car I see evidence every day that flashing daytime front and rear lights on bicycles are a hell of a lot more noticeable than cyclists who do not use daytime lights. There are remarkable LED lights that cost as little as $15 a pair that can offer significant day light visibility. Most of my cycling is on urban and suburban streets mixed with some bike lanes and a few dedicated bike trails. If I plan to ride out on public streets, in Kansas City, which is still in its infancy of accepting and accommodating bicyclists, I will use my portable LED lights.
I'm curious about the quote above... who is annoyed by the lights? The cyclist using them, other cyclists or those driving cars? I for one, am not annoyed while driving and see a cyclist, or group of cyclists 2-4 blocks blocks ahead me with flashing lights. I see the lights long before I see the riders--and that's a good thing for both parties.
#80
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the full quote is?
here I'll grab it for you
"Eye contact occurs when two animals look at each other's eyes at the same time. In human beings, eye contact is a form of nonverbal communication and is thought to have a large influence on social behavior."
So do you think that there is a possibility when someone says "eye contact" they might be referring to the "non verbal communication" between humans? Did i even need to add the "between humans" here? Apparently so, I mean it is a discussion about humans on bicycles and humans in cars.
here I'll grab it for you
"Eye contact occurs when two animals look at each other's eyes at the same time. In human beings, eye contact is a form of nonverbal communication and is thought to have a large influence on social behavior."
So do you think that there is a possibility when someone says "eye contact" they might be referring to the "non verbal communication" between humans? Did i even need to add the "between humans" here? Apparently so, I mean it is a discussion about humans on bicycles and humans in cars.
I do use flashing lights, front and rear, when cycling in the daytime. Not strobing.
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#81
Jedi Master
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#82
Originally I got some complaints on the bike trail about the super bright but now that they have gained in popularity there are no complaints.
#83
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I'm guilty of running daytime (head light) and twin tail lights all the time. One taillight uses g-force to trigger flashing to constant as a stop light and the other is a flashing super bright.
Originally I got some complaints on the bike trail about the super bright but now that they have gained in popularity there are no complaints.
Originally I got some complaints on the bike trail about the super bright but now that they have gained in popularity there are no complaints.
#84
Senior Member
I've grown increasingly tired of the constant negativity here. No... nothing will keep you alive better than luck. But why not let a few things increase our odds for another day or two? Are you worried about not looking cool? Or about the extra 2 ounces? I'll take increased likelihood of healthy limbs and a brain case intact all day over the alternatives.
To the OP... thanks for your post. I wouldn't leave home on any of my bikes without front and rear in erratic display mode.
To the OP... thanks for your post. I wouldn't leave home on any of my bikes without front and rear in erratic display mode.
Last edited by Jbarcs; 09-17-19 at 07:11 AM.
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#85
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I've grown increasingly tired of the constant negativity here. No... nothing will keep you alive better than luck. But why not let a few things increase our odds for another day or two? Are you worried about not looking cool? Or about the extra 2 ounces? I'll take increased likelihood of healthy limbs and a brain case intact all day over the alternatives.
To the OP... thanks for your post. I wouldn't leave home on any of my bikes with our front and rear in erratic display mode.
To the OP... thanks for your post. I wouldn't leave home on any of my bikes with our front and rear in erratic display mode.
#86
Member
What do 100% of drivers who run down a cyclist say? "I didn't see him."
Add my vote for lights at all times - anything to ensure that drivers notice me before they're on top of me.
The things are already on the damned bike (plus one clipped to the back of my helmet), so flipping a couple of switches is hardly a burden. You'd be an idiot not to do it.
Add my vote for lights at all times - anything to ensure that drivers notice me before they're on top of me.
The things are already on the damned bike (plus one clipped to the back of my helmet), so flipping a couple of switches is hardly a burden. You'd be an idiot not to do it.
#87
Newbie
Of course not. And neither can you. I'm pretty sure I've rolled up to more stop signs than you have because I'm probably 10 to 20 years your senior. I don't use a front light of any kind during daylight hours and here I is, still smiling. So, if its all the same to you, I'll keep using (nothing) what works for me. I must be missing the gene that makes people need to pull total strangers to their way of behavior. A decent 4400mah battery pack sets a person back ~$60. It's definitely useful at night. Why waste a single hour of its limited lifespan lighting up daylight? Does that make sense? Not in my opinion.
#88
Senior Member
#89
Senior Member
I make a distinction between a motorcycle and a bicycle. When bicycles have 50 watt alternators that power their electronics using superfluous mechanical energy from an internal combustion engine I will revisit the issue. For now charging a battery pack every other day works for me. I don't need or want to do it more often than that. Hi-Viz (or not) by day, and steady (front) and flashing (rear) lights at night. I'm good with that.
#90
Senior Member
In particular, @Leisesturm wrote“ ‘ride like they can't see you’? Don't you find it interesting that with that mindset uppermost, some cyclists still invest a small fortune in lighting equipment and other hi-viz accoutrements to make themselves seen?.”
I interpret this to mean invest yourself with as much visibility as you want, but don’t think it is necessarily effective.
I interpret this to mean invest yourself with as much visibility as you want, but don’t think it is necessarily effective.
#91
Member
If I ever hit a cyclist, it will be because I didn't see him.
#92
… How many times have you heard cyclists say "ride like they can't see you"? Don't you find it interesting that with that mindset uppermost, some cyclists still invest a small fortune in lighting equipment and other hi-viz accoutrements to make themselves seen?
Makes no sense. I am convinced that a lot of cyclists don't really know what it means to "ride like they can't see you"?
Makes no sense. I am convinced that a lot of cyclists don't really know what it means to "ride like they can't see you"?
…In particular I interpret this to mean invest yourself with as much visibility as you want, but don’t think it is necessarily effective.
Which then begs the question: how much MONEY is it reasonable to spend on what has already been acknowledged as a crapshoot?
Because my spouse also rides, I have more license than many to over-indulge in profligate expenditure of domestic treasure to satisfy bicycle related goals and attainment. Even so, we keep it simple: Planet Bike flasher (rear) and MagicShine headlight (obvious) and neither run during daylight.
I've seen dual and triple Dinotte 400R outfitted bikes. That's $600 in rear lighting alone. That is what my bike cost. I think I can point to that as an example of unreasonable. Especially if you are going into debt to do it.
Because my spouse also rides, I have more license than many to over-indulge in profligate expenditure of domestic treasure to satisfy bicycle related goals and attainment. Even so, we keep it simple: Planet Bike flasher (rear) and MagicShine headlight (obvious) and neither run during daylight.
I've seen dual and triple Dinotte 400R outfitted bikes. That's $600 in rear lighting alone. That is what my bike cost. I think I can point to that as an example of unreasonable. Especially if you are going into debt to do it.
I posted on this thread,
"Studies?..We don’t need no stinking studies…"
Many disputed safety practices, while maybe ineffective, are of themselves relatively harmless, e,g daytime lights, rear view mirror; perhaps less so, FRAP vs Take the Lane.…
I like to consider the perceived risk benefit ratio (based on my own experience, and/or advice of trustworthy others). Or, not to be religious, but in a similar vein, consider Pascal’s Wager: :
Many disputed safety practices, while maybe ineffective, are of themselves relatively harmless, e,g daytime lights, rear view mirror; perhaps less so, FRAP vs Take the Lane.…
I like to consider the perceived risk benefit ratio (based on my own experience, and/or advice of trustworthy others). Or, not to be religious, but in a similar vein, consider Pascal’s Wager: :
Originally Posted by Pascal
–God is, or God is not.
–Reason cannot decide between the two alternatives
–A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up
–You must wager (it is not optional
Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing…
–Reason cannot decide between the two alternatives
–A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up
–You must wager (it is not optional
Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing…
However, incredibly bright lights are a losing proposition to oncoming traffic, though they win if they are alerted.
So IMO, unreasonable use of lights is determined not by cost, but by inconvenience to oncoming vehicles
… I feel like a significant number motorists are living a 'Fast and Furious' fantasy life. All the safety equipment in the world won't protect from these offenders…
Also, even most lights used at night by motor vehicles and cyclists are waaayyy too bright. I can't say how many pedestrians and cyclists have been hidden in an oncoming vehicles halo only to be seen by me at the last moment. Vehicles behind can also generate some unsafe conditions by over saturating a drivers vision.
Also, even most lights used at night by motor vehicles and cyclists are waaayyy too bright. I can't say how many pedestrians and cyclists have been hidden in an oncoming vehicles halo only to be seen by me at the last moment. Vehicles behind can also generate some unsafe conditions by over saturating a drivers vision.
…Regarding overkill, the few instances I have encountered have been on MUPS with oncoming cyclists with blazing, blindingheadlights. I often think that they believe a cone of light is a force-field that will protect them, even from oncoming cars, so the more the better.
Here in Boston, most of my route is visible even with just ambient street illumination.
Here in Boston, most of my route is visible even with just ambient street illumination.
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 09-18-19 at 04:41 AM.
#93
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Okay, I think Jim has used the Force.
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#94
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To calculate crash reduction, wouldn't we have to first establish accident cause?
in 24 hours here we had 2 head on collisions, one was on the Phone, the other high speed and a corner. He went wide and crossed the center line on a curve. The third accident, a guy left the road and hit a telephone pole. 3 crashes where DRL wouldn't have made a difference, regardless of if they do or don't.
In short, drivers here are just flat out incompetent drivers. Stories I hear from friends, tells me that this sh***y driver problem is Nationwide. What safety measure would make a dent in crash reduction, other than quit giving out driver license like prizes in a cracker jack box?
my point is DRL will not fix stupid.
in 24 hours here we had 2 head on collisions, one was on the Phone, the other high speed and a corner. He went wide and crossed the center line on a curve. The third accident, a guy left the road and hit a telephone pole. 3 crashes where DRL wouldn't have made a difference, regardless of if they do or don't.
In short, drivers here are just flat out incompetent drivers. Stories I hear from friends, tells me that this sh***y driver problem is Nationwide. What safety measure would make a dent in crash reduction, other than quit giving out driver license like prizes in a cracker jack box?
my point is DRL will not fix stupid.
There will be many more folks just driving without licenses.
#95
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As far as Road riding. Western Ohio North of I-70 is really nice road riding. but most of those people are people that were driving farm stuff from age 12.
#96
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^ that's already bad enough here. :'( and we know they don't have insurance either, We have to drive very defensively here. I have not ridden in C'bus, but down in Ross County, I wouldn't even want to be on the roads on a bicycle.
As far as Road riding. Western Ohio North of I-70 is really nice road riding. but most of those people are people that were driving farm stuff from age 12.
As far as Road riding. Western Ohio North of I-70 is really nice road riding. but most of those people are people that were driving farm stuff from age 12.
Lights in the day help drivers decide how to get around you. On tree shaded streets you'll blend in unless you use lights. Some asshats in traffic will be asshats, but their road positioning can point them out for you, same as if you're driving.
What we need as a state is a dedicated component on an exam and periodic PSAs about how to handle a much slower vehicle. Folks get frustrated thinking they can't pass you in a double yellow when they can if traffic allows.
#97
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That's a shame about Ross county, those long farm roads and rolling hills beg for a ride. It's typical in Columbus, poor folks don't bother with licensing or insurance. Think they're good drivers because they've never hit anybody then get bent over when they're hit or finally make a mistake.
Lights in the day help drivers decide how to get around you. On tree shaded streets you'll blend in unless you use lights. Some asshats in traffic will be asshats, but their road positioning can point them out for you, same as if you're driving.
What we need as a state is a dedicated component on an exam and periodic PSAs about how to handle a much slower vehicle. Folks get frustrated thinking they can't pass you in a double yellow when they can if traffic allows.
Lights in the day help drivers decide how to get around you. On tree shaded streets you'll blend in unless you use lights. Some asshats in traffic will be asshats, but their road positioning can point them out for you, same as if you're driving.
What we need as a state is a dedicated component on an exam and periodic PSAs about how to handle a much slower vehicle. Folks get frustrated thinking they can't pass you in a double yellow when they can if traffic allows.
yeah perfectly legal to pass slow moving traffic on a double yellow. However I have seen people do it on blind curves and hills and it scares me. Once I heard a car coming head on and also behind me. I took my lane. and did the Slowing signal to car behind me. a car popped the hill, I then went to the white line, and got the biggest thank you wave ever.
#98
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I might as well run lights all the time; I turn them on at dusk, when the sun is low in the morning and again in the late afternoon when the sun is low, in the rain, and at night.
Since most motor vehicles in traffic now have daytime running lights, having your bike lights on helps drivers see you as part of traffic.
The purist in me says lights are not part of cycling. The pragmatist in me says if you're gonna ride in traffic then use mirrors, lights and a horn like the other vehicles...and I do, except for daytime lights as noted above. On the other hand, my high-visibility yellow and orange jerseys really stand out in the daylight...
I can't argue with the video.
Thanks for posting it.
Since most motor vehicles in traffic now have daytime running lights, having your bike lights on helps drivers see you as part of traffic.
The purist in me says lights are not part of cycling. The pragmatist in me says if you're gonna ride in traffic then use mirrors, lights and a horn like the other vehicles...and I do, except for daytime lights as noted above. On the other hand, my high-visibility yellow and orange jerseys really stand out in the daylight...
I can't argue with the video.
Thanks for posting it.
#99
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First of all there is mountains of evidence. In 2012 there was a study in Denmark there have been other studies in the U.K. and Germany that show a significant reduction in accidents with the use of day time lights. There is also another study done by the US dept of transportation that shows a reduction of daytime accidents between cars and motorcycles that use daytime lights specifically flashing lights. Motorcycles are bigger and louder this more visable to begin with than bicycles so it doesn’t take much to extrapolate that they would increase safety of cyclists. Your own statement that they are annoying is proof also? If they annoy you you obviously notice them and that is the point. To each their own as far as if you choose to use them or not but you can not ignore the fact that they will in fact help make a rider safer
#100
Jedi Master
First of all there is mountains of evidence. In 2012 there was a study in Denmark there have been other studies in the U.K. and Germany that show a significant reduction in accidents with the use of day time lights. There is also another study done by the US dept of transportation that shows a reduction of daytime accidents between cars and motorcycles that use daytime lights specifically flashing lights. Motorcycles are bigger and louder this more visable to begin with than bicycles so it doesn’t take much to extrapolate that they would increase safety of cyclists. Your own statement that they are annoying is proof also? If they annoy you you obviously notice them and that is the point. To each their own as far as if you choose to use them or not but you can not ignore the fact that they will in fact help make a rider safer
The best cycling safety research I have seen is coming out of the UK. From the British research, by far the biggest danger to cyclists is a left hook (right hook in the US), which is easily avoidable by the cyclist who knows not to pass trucks and busses on the right at intersections. Head on collisions basically never happen unless the cyclist is drunk and rear-end collisions where a car runs into a bicycle travelling the same direction are almost non-existent in the data. As mentioned above, a high-vis vest (which I frequently wear) is the most visible to drivers, so I just don't see the benefit of a blinking tail light that attracts drivers' attention from a mile away that has become so common for cyclists in the US.
I also ride motorcycles and have read some of the safety research on that topic. The most common accident there is cars pulling out in front of motorcycles where the driver is not able to judge the distance and/or speed of the oncoming motorcycle, and the rider doesn't have enough distance to slow the motorcycle enough to avoid a collision. Daytime headlights provide some safety benefit for that type of accident, but rider awareness, training, and speed have a much larger effect on safety. Obviously, this type of accident just doesn't happen on a bicycle where speeds and stopping distances are much lower.