livedarklions

And winning a baseball game is as easy as scoring more runs than the other side. All that worrying about hitting, pitching and fielding is so besides the point.

The point is there's nothing simple about that when people have varying access to healthy foods, time and facilities for physical exercise, family and job commitments that pull them in different directions, varying genetic traits that make metabolizing of food a different equation for pretty much everybody, and possible physical infirmities that make both exercise and the acquisition of healthy foods difficult for people.

What you're demonstrating here is that it's possible to state the issue at such a high level of generality that it sounds simple when the issue is that there is no cookie cutter formula for how to achieve that balance that keeps a person at a healthy weight over time.

And trust me, I don't believe in "fads", touchy-feely or otherwise. I'll avoid the topic of whether I think cross-training is actually a fading fad, btw, but I think even you would have to acknowledge it isn't a good fit for everyone.

I have lost nearly half my body weight and kept it off for about 5 years now and I assure you I was never helped by anyone's moralizing. I certainly didn't do it through the use of any fad diet, I basically made up my own regimen as I saw what would actually allow me to maintain a slow but steady weight loss, then to keep it off when I actually exceeded my original weight loss goal. Frankly, I do know a fair number of people who have lost and kept off some serious amounts of weight, and I don't believe any one of them ever told me that someone scolding them about their lack of self-control was ever helpful to them. Some egoists like to think they're being helpful, I guess, but it usually is just claptrap from people who claim to have it all figured out for everyone else.

livedarklions

Too subtle--it'll fly right over their heads.

livedarklions

I'm always glad to see you posting and hope your health is improving. I'm selfish, your posts are always interesting and amusing so I want to read more of them.

I had a bit of the opposite experience, my weight loss was so extreme that people were asking me if everything was ok. I'm sorry you're getting the short end of that bargain.

I just saw a documentary show (I think it was Nova) about the role of fat in health, and they did a segment on a man who had a genetic disorder that didn't allow his body to store any significant amounts of fat. Because of the lack of fat, his muscles looked huge and defined, but he actually was weak and could barely walk, both because his knees lacked fat pads and because he would get fatigued with very low levels of exertion as he had very little stored energy reserves. But he definitely looked good in a bathing suit.

terrymorse 

When I wrote "controversial", I meant a specific thing: that science has not been able to show that it works.

RH Clark

That all depends on where you get your information. For every scientist with one fact. I can show you one with the opposite conclusion. Science is not the source of truth. It is simply a method of learning. Science is constantly changing it's mind because we are all constantly learning new things. The best any of us can do is to gather as much information as possible from all sources and then use our reasoning and logic to determine what is the best information for us to use.

terrymorse 

Be careful, that sounds a lot like cherry picking, in which ones searches for a study that confirms what one already believes.

The state of scientific knowledge isn't based on a single study, but on many to form a consensus. That's why it's good to look for review articles that articulates the state of the science, as they synthesize their conclusions from many independent studies.

For example, the review article I linked to: Exercise Training and Fasting: Current Insights. From which I quoted: "there is little evidence to support the notion of endurance training and fasting-mediated increases in fat oxidation".

The best we can do is to make decisions based on the scientific consensus.

livedarklions

You sort of contradict yourself here, but consider this a friendly correction please.

I agree that the science in this area is particularly muddy with contradictory findings all over the place. My sense is where it's leading is a notion that these things are going to need to be tailored at an individual level as people respond differently in the way things are metabolized, different levels of activity, etc. Given the amount of conflicting information about things like fasting, I think the best thing for me to do is to use the literature to suggest things I might try to see if they actually work for me. Nothing personal, but I have absolutely nothing at stake in figuring out if it will work for you, and when you say it does, I have no way of knowing if that's true or applicable to me. If I think the person might know what they're talking about, I might try something they say works for them, but that's obviously a subjective call on my part.

I'm under the impression that the more I ride over 100 miles in a day, the more fat I lose regardless of what I eat in that day, but I haven't tried to measure that and probably wouldn't care if that turned out to be wrong.

wolfchild

I believe that the best thing to do is to ignore nutrition studies and continue to do what works for us as individuals...Nutrition science is too confusing and contradictory.

livedarklions

The problem comes in when we don't know yet what works for us. When the things that are supposed to be obvious aren't working, where do we go for ideas on what to try?

You haven't really experienced that, many of us on this thread have.

wolfchild

There are many people out there for whom fasted training works, that's why they keep doing it, if it didn't work they wouldn't be doing it.

wolfchild

Knowing what works and what doesn't comes through self-experimentation and trail and error, that's the way I do it...

RH Clark

Not at all, but it's also important to understand that the science that those studies evaluate is constantly advancing. Notions of what is the perfect human diet have changed over the years. I believe it was as early as 2016 that the Nobel prize was awarded for mapping out the process of Autophagy. Possibly, IMHO, some of the best info we can gain about nutrition science is looking into the diet and lifestyle of the healthiest and longest lived population segments from all around the globe, and even then specific genetics will determine outcomes likely as much as any other factor. Lots of factors play into overall health. Some people have specific needs that require deviation from the norm. That doesn't make what they do wrong. It can make it right for them specifically.

Maybe I'm just a bit older and more cynical than some, but I've seen science change too much over the years to think otherwise. If there is one thing I am sure of today is that anytime anyone thinks they have it all figured out, you can be sure that they don't.

livedarklions

We agree on that, it's just I had to try a lot more things than you did given that I can't "instinctively" control my caloric intake as you say you do.
Scientific literature can provide me with ideas I can try, and also warn me off of things that are proving to be downright harmful.

genejockey 

Bingo.

livedarklions

It works for them, or at least they believe it works. It does not mean that that's generally applicable. Scientific studies are designed to pick up the people it doesn't work for as well as the people it does.

My basic approach to this is that everything works for someone but nothing works for everybody. If I tried to do everything somebody claims works for them, I'll constantly be going nuts because the stuff is mutually contradictory.

It's not that long ago everybody was convinced the key was constant grazing on small meals throughout the day, now we're all being convinced the key is intermittent fasting, which is literally the opposite approach.

genejockey 

Which means your conclusions should be limited to yourself. An N of 1 is insufficient for making universal conclusions.

livedarklions

When anyone mentions "fasting", part of my brain goes right to images of Yom Kippur, and I get really, really thirsty. 24 hours without food is not a big deal, but without water? Bleccch!

RH Clark

I can't see any reason to fast without water except for religious reasons or something related to body building competition. I have IM fasted for about 2 years because it is a weight loss and health promoting strategy that works for me. When I started 6 hours without calories was dang tough. For about a year now though I eat calories in a 4 hour window every day. I do that about 90% of the time but I'm not so religious about it that I won't eat some healthy carbs if I start lagging on a long bike ride. It's just a day to day strategy that helps me maintain a healthy body weight. I cycle every day fasted but it might only be 5-10 miles. If I do 30+ miles, you can be sure I'll eat something when I feel like I need it.

terrymorse 

For any diet, or food supplement, or training practice, one can find many people who use it and enthusiastically claim that it "works". But science requires more stringent criteria than "a bunch of people say it works".

Do as you please, of course. But science doesn't support your claims.

Iride01 

We'll not know evidently as the proponents are just arguing without defining or qualifying anything. My question wasn't answered and I don't know if one is expected to be able to hold their own against non-fasted riders they might ride with or if this is just for those that are only concentrating on weight loss above all else.

genejockey 

No, no, no, no, no! Science doesn't "change its mind". That's nonsensical. What happens is usually that someone other than the scientists reads conclusions which we have carefully couched in conditionals, and then broadcasts the conclusions without the conditionals.

RH Clark

Really? Leading scientists of the day once used leaches and bleeding to treat disease. It was the scientifically approved practice of the day. LOL!

Be blessed ,happy and well my friend.

livedarklions

With you on that. Some people consider fasting to be a multi-day event, others just mean skip a meal, and still others mean just don't eat during the ride.

I remember a thread that involved nutrition on a long ride and the answers were all over the barn. I finally realized that no one was agreeing on a definition of a "long ride". The range of rides people were talking about was something like 15 miles to over 100.

genejockey 

Given that they weren't practicing the scientific method, I'm not clear why you'd refer to them as 'scientists'.

livedarklions

I don't think anyone recommends going without water other than for religious reasons. I just developed that mental connection early--it's like you avoid the food you last ate before getting sick because you associate the food with that feeling. Generally, I'll talk about riding or working out on an empty stomach, but if I use the word "fasting", I'll psych myself out.

Not saying it's rational, it's basically Pavlovian.