densolo

I'm new to fixed-gear bikes and track bikes and only started learning more about them (in the last week). I saw a beautiful track bike that I like. The problem is that I'm not ready to shell out that kind of cash (just yet).

So I'm asking the wider community, how many Japanese track bikes would you normally see in the marketplace? E.g. 1 a month? 2 a month, 1 a year?
And more particularly, in my case, I'm interested in older bikes (70's). How rare was it to import a Japanese track bike in those days (i.e. import into North America)? My guess is that it would be pretty rare.

It's funny, but I figure if a track bike is NJS-approved it would mean that there would be a lot of frames out in the marketplace (and the prices wouldn't be as high as they are), meaning, think of all the years that a spec (i.e. NJS) is consistent for all those years, you would expect that quite a few of these frames would become available more readily (making them more affordable).

Thanks

veganbikes

Probably not a ton of them but people love NJS stuff, they go gaga over it. Some of it is nice and certainly there are some nicely built frames from some great builders but honestly not that exciting at least for the price. It is for a betting sport it doesn't have to be good it has to be the same. Granted yes a lot of NJS stuff is of quality but honestly not always worth it. Plus with the track bikes they are track bikes for the track, not really practical for road riding and I want a bike for road riding unless I am on a track.

Rolla

Think of all the years that messengers and fixters have been snapping up vintage NJS frames; you're a little late to the party. Just be patient, search daily, and be ready to pounce and to pay. But as fashionable as NJS frames might be, I agree with veganbikes that there are better tools for the job.

densolo

There's one up for sale not too far from me. And it's vintage which I like!
I'm just doing some research before I splurge. I bought a bike in November and December now.
So I'm concerned that I'm losing control!

The thing is, the bike of interest, is not NJS stamped. The term used is "pre-NJS".
So would you know when NJS-stamping of components was introduced?

densolo

This tells me that the people snapping up NJS frames are keeping them. Another good reason to buy one when it becomes available.

I saw a Youtube video on Keirin races. It looked like a 90's video. The video mentioned that there are 4300 racers in a given season (year?). Of the 4300 racers, only about 150 are new recruits (about 10% succeed through the Keirin school). Let's say, hypothetically, 10% of racers replace their bikes a year, plus the 150 need new bikes, that makes 600 a year. Yeah, that's not a lot of bikes to go around.

burnthesheep

I see them on Ebay a lot. I got my track bike locally used, but when searching for a track bike saw a lot of old Euro and Japanese track bikes on there. By a lot, I mean maybe 4 or 5 Euro ones and 1 or 2 Japanese ones show up on there per week.

densolo

Ahhhh! Search "track bike" on eBay and see results. Thanks burnthesheep . I feel stupid now.

IAmSam

Don't own or contemplate acquiring one but I think Keirin frames and the sparkly paint jobs are pretty cool. And I'll pass on discussion of whether the commonly available used framesets are worth it but here is maybe the biggest resource and there are others if you will but search...

https://www.njs-export.com/collections/frames


Have fun - good luck...

enso_on

japanese auction sites are also a good bet.

Bianchi pc

Worth - I dunno. An art dearer I knew a while ago told me " something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it". If the market price for an NJS frameset seems exorbitant to some that's fair but as someone who just had an NJS frameset (from NJS export) built with mostly non NJS components I'm pretty happy and would buy one again - seems like a lot of people around the world feel the same way:-)
ride what you like, a lot of fun bikes out there...

slshrflck

You've obviously already made the determination that framesets made for Keirin are pretty cool. I agree. The prices can vary greatly, for many different reasons. Brand name, paint color, and condition are all factors when it comes to asking price. Keirin can get pretty sketchy, so NJS framesets often have dented top tubes, or even front end damage from accidents. The races typically go on, rain or shine, so I have also come across a few with rust issues. If you decide to pull the trigger, just be careful. Do your best to inspect the condition, and always ask questions about anything you are unsure of. If you happen to purchase from Japan, I suggest paying the extra for DHL or FedEx shipping. I have had a few framesets make it to the US in a few days, just to sit in customs for a month and a half. Good luck!

TugaDude

1957 See the article below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keirin

As far as value, to some, a bike that has been raced in Keirin would be special and to others it is simply used! If you are one of the former, then you still want it to fit and for it to be in good shape, frame straight, no major dents, etc. Some are likely abused while others might look close to brand-new. Sometimes hard to tell from photos. Some of the frame manufacturers of track bikes like Panasonic, produce some remarkable product. I'm sure there are bottom-feeders too.

Can you share what they're asking? How did they acquire the bike? All good to know.

As Veganbikes said, track frames aren't necessarily comfortable for general road riding. If that is the riding you wish to do, you might be better off with an All City Big Block or a Wabi. They are still track bikes, but they ride well on the streets.

Bianchi pc

[QUOTE=slshrflck;22431595]You've obviously already made the determination that framesets made for Keirin are pretty cool. I agree.

Yes.
Slshrflck: your new Stratos build is breathtaking - just beautiful. Is that a Columbus max fork? - Nicely done in any case.

Bianchi pc

I find riding track frames on the street comfortable enough for street riding -short and long rides- depending on handlebar and tire choice/pressure... and I could be wrong but I don't think Wabi makes a track frame... have heard good things about their bikes though along with the All City offerings.

not knocking your choices but as happy as I am with how my new Japanese Keirin frame rides and as happy as I've been with my Pista concept I think we have drawn different conclusions...
Peace n Love

slshrflck

Thank you! And yes, it is a Columbus Max fork.

densolo

$950 CAD
https://www.pedalroom.com/bike/katak...lk-pista-46498

I figure Sam (the seller) is on Bikeforum, so hopefully he doesn't mind me posting it here.
Sam told me he purchased it from another Cycle restorer local here in Toronto.

I actually decided to pass on it. Not because of the price, but because I wanted to build one myself (learning experience). If I finish my build, and it's still available, I may go and buy it.

TugaDude

I'm sure that bike is worth that price to somebody, but it wouldn't be to me. I do like the fact it is a vintage track bike and appears to be in very good shape. I'd want a peek behind that tape on the top tube to ensure it isn't covering up a nice dent. It surely had drops on it originally and they may have caused damage there. Not a deal-breaker, but something good to know. For some it might be a deal-breaker though.

I like your idea of building up your own.

Bianchi pc

Building your own is certainly nice - often it's the most expensive route to go though, especially with the current bike boom & if you don't work in a bike store or know anyone else that does.

If you are still looking at NJS & or older track bikes here is another site that may be useful:

https://kuromoribikeco.com/collections/njs?page=4

you already know eBay - and NJS export, which I had a good experience with - they list things on eBay under the name Phil _the_power_taylor

one of the things I like best about them is they list standover height - which can vary quite a lot within a given size - something to keep in mind is they must be measuring said standover with something like 19mm tubulars - if you want wider tires for street riding that will raise you up a bit.

also clearances are likely tighter on older frames - mine, which was constructed in 2014 has 25mm tires and I think room for 28s.

good luck

TugaDude

It always helps to take advantage of sales and to search out sellers that offer quality components at competitive prices. For the latter, I find Velomine.com to be a good resource. There is no doubt that buying a bike complete may be cheaper, but unless you get to spec. the various components, you're going to get what you get. And some of the parts are things you're liable to want to change out before they wear out. So if you do your homework and look for deals, that can go a long way to making the process less painful. Velomine frequently has really good deals on wheels. Right now they have some attractive rim/hub combos with H Plus + Son available.

densolo

The tape (or strap?) on the top tube is to prevent damage from the handlebars swaying side-to-side. I noticed that a lot of Keirin bikes have that tape.

Well it does seem the going rate for Japanese track bikes are in the range of $1000+ USD (so this vintage is not too far off the mark). I'm not sure about the history, but I read someplace that Katakura Silk was a production bike. Modern Keirin bikes are custom-built (all modern Keirin bikes?), hence the higher prices. Looking at production track bikes (or fixies) from manufacturers (outside of Japan), e.g. Wabi, Dolan, etc. I see prices of around $1000+ USD. Here in Canada, I found C&L Cycles which offers a new track bike frame for $800 CAD. So yeah, $950 CAD for a classic, vintage, pre-NJS track bike doesn't sound too far fetched.

Regarding, building my own, I bought a Miyata 710 frame (with stuck quill stem) for fairly cheap and I'm building a fixed gear bike out of it. So far so good, I've cut out the quill stem (not as painful as I thought). So now I'm waiting for my bottom bracket to arrive in the mail, so I can figure out whether I can marry the double-crank with the bottom bracket. It's so much better to build one yourself, if only to figure out the details of putting the pieces together.

Thanks for your remarks.

densolo

What I like about the Japanese bikes (now that I'm building my own) is that from the 70's to current day, a large proportion of riders are my height! Lol. More selection means better deals! And there is a larger proportion of buyers (here in my neck of the woods) that prefer high-end Italian (and taller specs). And I prefer to screw up my builds on something cheaper.

But you're right, stand-over height is a good indicator of fit (a very good basic measure of fit). My first purchase (recently) was a French bike 56cm. The bike feels the same way that the Raleigh I used to own as a kid used to feel (too tall). Of course, back then it was all I had (so it became "normal"). But now, I realize the French bike is actually too tall (I'm 1" from comfortable, lol). So 54cm or smaller for me!

Thanks

TugaDude

Well aware of the purpose of the tape. My point is I'd want it removed so that I could see if it is covering up previous damage.

Bianchi pc

Yes top tube length matters more but it's nice to preserve the family jewels.

I also originally started looking at Japanese bikes because not manny of the European or American produced bikes seemed like they were designed with my height or proportions in mind.

My Pista Concept is a size 51 - but that measurement is center to top of seatpost so the center to center measurement is more like 48cm... the standover is 30 inches - which is a little tighter than ideal for me but not so much so that I have ever scrambled my eggs, and I don't need to lean the bike to the side to get on or off.

I also have a long- ish torso (long waisted).

Truth be be told I think I would have been a little better off losing the 2mm of top tube and gaining 2cm in standover ( I think the 49cm is the same size frame with the top tube at a slight diagonal.)

So I wanted my next bike to be a little shorter vertically and a little longer horizontally.

keirin bikes are built to the riders proportions so for me there were more sizing options .

good luck with your build.