tomato coupe

On the advice of counsel ...

csport

We also need blackjack threads! In fact, forget about the brakes:

Eric F 

You have clearly convinced yourself that rim brakes are better. You do you, man.

That said, I'm not so sure all your "facts" are factual.

smd4

Nope.

Like I said, I can already launch myself over the bars by activating my left lever with one finger while riding the hoods. Please explain how my brakes are going to get better.

cyccommute 

Like implications that we are going to die if we don’t use discs? While I don’t agree that discs cause any balance issues, they do introduce problems we haven’t seen before like a front wheel that is dished as well as reducing the bracing angle…and strength…of the rear wheel. The ever wider hubs and frames are answers to these introduced problem.

seypat

Words to live by.

big john

You've actually done this? Maybe you should learn braking control and learn to shift your body weight back when braking.

smd4

Still waiting for an answer to my question...

big john

Clearly if you are launching yourself over the bars you don't need stronger brakes,

Eric F 

Personally, I choose brake evaluation methods that don't involve potential injury to myself.

From my own experience, as an owner of bikes with various braking systems...When comparing my two MTBs (one with v-brakes, one with disc brakes), I can lock up either wheel on either bike whenever I want, but locking up isn't generally an effective approach to braking, especially when things are at their most demanding. What I have found is that the disc brake system requires less lever force, and - more importantly - provides more consistent modulation performance in a wider variety of conditions. Dirty and wet rims from stream crossings don't affect disc brake performance. On a ride with some friends a few months ago, I had a rock bounce up during a decent and break a spoke in my rear wheel. If I was on my v-brake bike, this likely would have meant releasing the brake, and having to make a very careful journey back home. On my disc brake bike, I removed the broken spoke sections from the rim and hub, and finished the last 5 miles of our ride at full pace. My braking performance was unaffected by the wobble of the rear wheel.

big john

When I got my first set of v-brakes I thought they were awesome. I rode down the Gabrielino in a wet year and the pads were trashed by the end and the lever pulled all the way back to the bar. I'd still use them again, depending on the bike.

I remember coming down Angeles Crest during the AC Century in a driving rain on my CAAD5. That thick, black slurry created by the rims grinding away was all over everything, including me. That was a day for discs. Or for someone more fearless than I.

smd4

It works for you. Awesome.

But the answer to my question is this: Disc brakes would provide absolutely no discernable, tangle benefits to me (emphasis added, because lots of people don't know that this phrase is understood when espousing personal opinions). Disc brakes are laden with a plethora of undesirable features,for me. I don't ride a mountain bike, and I don't ride in rainy or wet conditions. If and when I ever get a bike that I plan on using for such conditions, I'd have no problem using disc brakes--and the way it's going, it sounds like I won't have a choice anyway (however, my experience in hearing such things may be subject to debate. But I digress). As it stands now, only owning a Cinelli road racing bike, there is simply zero benefit, to me, of using disc brakes.

Eric F 

Compared to cantilevers, they were - LOL

Atlas Shrugged

This is typical of the exaggeration that discredits the rim brake proponents. It is factually incorrect if you are seated normally on your bicycle.

Eric F 

On the road, under dry conditions, the performance gap between rim and disc brakes narrows. Personally, I'm fine with the rim brakes on my #1 road bike until it comes to a time to upgrade that bike (which isn't in the foreseeable future for me). I don't think anyone is saying that disc brakes are a perfect solution. There are certainly compromises and adaptations that have needed to be made to accommodate them in modern bicycles, and it certainly can be debated on whether those are actually improvements to the machine.

As I have commented before, my single issue was your initial statement that disc brakes are on/off and lack modulation, and how significantly it differed from my experiences with disc brakes.

tomato coupe

You have a short memory. You basically lit this dumpster fire with the following:

Dave Mayer

I forgot a few more road disc-brake downsides, apart from them being heavy, fussy and unnecessary:

• Extra space on the front hub required for the rotor attachments. This introduces dish on the front wheel and means a weaker build, all things being equal. Plus you need 2 different lengths of spokes for building front wheels - a minor PITA, but still a PITA.
• Extra space on the rear wheel for the rotor attachments. This is not a trivial problem, as spoke bracing angles and rear hub flange spacing dimensions have gotten so extreme now, that rear wheels are simply weak and unstable. So we have to go with wider stay spacing, which means more heel strike. And wider crankset Q-factor, biomechanically inefficient.
• Thru-axles. What an absurd PITA! With a QR, you flip the lever and the wheel drops out, just like Tullio Campagnolo meant it to happen. With discs, which tend to eject front wheels, you need a more robust and idiot-proof solution. So now we interminably twiddle away with our thru-axles, and forget them at the trailhead. Of course, there are 20 different thru-axle 'standards'. BTW: thru-axles are not axles, as they do not bear load. They are simply wheel retention devices for riders who cannot be trusted to use a proper QR. Lawyers win this round!

big john

Don't sugar coat it, Dave. Tell us how you really feel.

Eric F 

I think he's still trying to convince himself. I'm doubtful that anyone else's opinion is changing.

Rolla

If you ever ride a QR bike with discs, you'll understand why thru-axles are a godsend. Precisely and consistently locating the axle in the frame makes aligning the rotor with the caliper nearly foolproof.

Funny how none of the "downsides" seem very important or at all likely. Throwing off a front wheel? A weak and unstable rear wheel? Heel strike? Inefficient Q-factor? I have to say, none of these have ever come up, occurred, or crossed my mind in all the years I've had disc brakes. But they do make for compelling "Chicken Little" content, I'll give you that.

Eric F 

I believe Mr. Mayer would consider the need to be precise and consistent to be a flaw in the system.

Camilo

I eliminated the source of this quote because it's only one of so many it was waay too much work to multi-quote.

The internet provides:

What Is the Straw Man Argument?
Straw man argument is a flawed line of reasoning that occurs when someone substitutes an opposing argument with a distorted, oversimplified, exaggerated, or misrepresented version of it in order to make it easier to defeat.

As such, this fallacy takes the following logical form:

Person 1 makes an argument X.
Person B creates a distorted version of person A’s argument (the “straw man”).
Person B attacks the distorted version of argument X.
Typically, it gives the impression of being a reasonable counter to the original claim, but in reality, it attacks a position or view that their opponent doesn’t really hold. Moreover, the claim may be distorted by taking it out of context, focusing only on a single aspect of it, or being only remotely related to it.

tomato coupe

This is clearly the best reason to stay away from disc brakes -- the name of the retention device is offensive!!

big john

I wonder if anyone changes their opinions in these long, drawn out threads? Let's get this one up to 700 posts to see!

Eric F 

I had my opinion on hybrids and hybrid riders changed recently.