Anyone else keeping their rim brake frames ?
01-19-23, 08:10 AM
#551
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,850
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6941 Post(s)
Liked 10,944 Times
in
4,677 Posts
01-19-23, 08:50 AM
#552
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,756
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3492 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times
in
1,766 Posts
01-19-23, 09:25 AM
#553
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,253
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8261 Post(s)
Liked 8,998 Times
in
4,456 Posts
- Mario Camilotto - built frames from 1988-91. Previously Camilotto had worked with Sante Pogliaghi as a frame builder from 1978-83.
01-19-23, 09:41 AM
#554
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,850
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6941 Post(s)
Liked 10,944 Times
in
4,677 Posts
Once batch production started in the 70s there were many people involved in the manufacturing of each frame. Tubes were mitred and prepped in batches based on frame size by one or more individuals. Rear triangles were batch made separately. Forks were batch made by another. Luggs were prepped and cleaned up. Main triangle were made in lots based on size. Frames were then joined in another section. Welds were cleaned up by another and cold set for alignment. Finally decals and paint done by another. Each of these workstations would have been stafffed by one or more production workers. The urban myth that the founder or a single artisan was behind these Italian bike boom bikes from the 70s on is nothing but an effective urban legend to create a sense of exclusivity.
1947
Cino lures framebuilder Luigi Valsasina from Bianchi's Reparto Corse. Valsassina was the framebuilder who had built Cino's bikes when he raced for Bianchi. Valsassina remained with Cinelli & C. S.r.l. until 1980, a few years after the sale to Antonio Colombo of Columbus tubing in 1976. Valsassina is the sole person in charge of all framebuilding during Cino's time even though he had a number of people who worked for him and assisted him. Likely average annual production was approximately 250 frames/bikes per year.
I think that quote is quite clear.
01-19-23, 09:46 AM
#555
Dirty Heathen
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: MC-778, 6250 fsw
Posts: 2,182
Bikes: 1997 Cannondale, 1976 Bridgestone, 1998 SoftRide, 1989 Klein, 1989 Black Lightning #0033
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 889 Post(s)
Liked 906 Times
in
534 Posts
Bummer. I know who welded both of my Cannondales (the '96 and the '89) their initials are on the left dropout. One of those things from the "Handmade in the USA" days. One of them was even an active member on this site.
Last edited by Ironfish653; 01-19-23 at 09:49 AM.
01-19-23, 10:05 AM
#556
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,756
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3492 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times
in
1,766 Posts
From the page big john linked, with emphasis added:
1947
Cino lures framebuilder Luigi Valsasina from Bianchi's Reparto Corse. Valsassina was the framebuilder who had built Cino's bikes when he raced for Bianchi. Valsassina remained with Cinelli & C. S.r.l. until 1980, a few years after the sale to Antonio Colombo of Columbus tubing in 1976. Valsassina is the sole person in charge of all framebuilding during Cino's time even though he had a number of people who worked for him and assisted him. Likely average annual production was approximately 250 frames/bikes per year.
I think that quote is quite clear.
1947
Cino lures framebuilder Luigi Valsasina from Bianchi's Reparto Corse. Valsassina was the framebuilder who had built Cino's bikes when he raced for Bianchi. Valsassina remained with Cinelli & C. S.r.l. until 1980, a few years after the sale to Antonio Colombo of Columbus tubing in 1976. Valsassina is the sole person in charge of all framebuilding during Cino's time even though he had a number of people who worked for him and assisted him. Likely average annual production was approximately 250 frames/bikes per year.
I think that quote is quite clear.
01-19-23, 10:12 AM
#557
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,850
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6941 Post(s)
Liked 10,944 Times
in
4,677 Posts
01-19-23, 10:19 AM
#558
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,381
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4387 Post(s)
Liked 4,828 Times
in
2,984 Posts
My frame was handmade by a dozen Tawainese virgins, rather than some grizzled old Italian bloke.
Likes For PeteHski:
01-19-23, 10:25 AM
#559
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,756
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3492 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times
in
1,766 Posts
01-19-23, 10:31 AM
#560
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,937
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3942 Post(s)
Liked 7,284 Times
in
2,941 Posts
01-19-23, 10:32 AM
#561
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,381
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4387 Post(s)
Liked 4,828 Times
in
2,984 Posts
Likes For PeteHski:
01-19-23, 10:33 AM
#562
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,381
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4387 Post(s)
Liked 4,828 Times
in
2,984 Posts
01-19-23, 10:33 AM
#563
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,657
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1245 Post(s)
Liked 1,321 Times
in
673 Posts
This is not to take away from what is a very beautiful bicycle that I lusted for in the 70s with a 1st Generation Super Record Group. But these bikes were everywhere, and they obviously understated production. Every premium bike shop in Europe and North America had numerous top-end Italian bikes in stock and the start line in local criteriums from small town Australia to Vancouver Canada was full of bikes that ended with a vowel and were supposedly hand-made in some small artisanal workshop.
My google response:
"From there, annual production of stems and bars rose from 5,000 during the 1950s, to 7,500 in the 1960s and to 150,000 by 1978, while also producing more than 700 frames per year."
"By the late 1970’s, Cinelli was the principle maker of stems and handlebars, as well as the OEM supplier to virtually every bike brand, while frame-making continued to increase as well, still relying on the basic design principles of his original Speciale Corsa frame from 1947."
My google response:
"From there, annual production of stems and bars rose from 5,000 during the 1950s, to 7,500 in the 1960s and to 150,000 by 1978, while also producing more than 700 frames per year."
"By the late 1970’s, Cinelli was the principle maker of stems and handlebars, as well as the OEM supplier to virtually every bike brand, while frame-making continued to increase as well, still relying on the basic design principles of his original Speciale Corsa frame from 1947."
Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 01-19-23 at 11:57 AM.
01-19-23, 10:49 AM
#564
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,850
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6941 Post(s)
Liked 10,944 Times
in
4,677 Posts
This is not to take away from what is a very beautiful bicycle that I lusted for in the 70s with a 1st Generation Super Record Group. But these bikes were everywhere, and they obviously understated production. Every premium bike shop in Europe and North America has numerous top-end Italian bikes in stock and the start line in local criteriums from small town Australia to Vancouver Canada has full of bikes that ended with a vowel and were supposedly hand-made in some small artisanal workshop.
My google response:
"From there, annual production of stems and bars rose from 5,000 during the 1950s, to 7,500 in the 1960s and to 150,000 by 1978, while also producing more than 700 frames per year."
"By the late 1970’s, Cinelli was the principle maker of stems and handlebars, as well as the OEM supplier to virtually every bike brand, while frame-making continued to increase as well, still relying on the basic design principles of his original Speciale Corsa frame from 1947."
My google response:
"From there, annual production of stems and bars rose from 5,000 during the 1950s, to 7,500 in the 1960s and to 150,000 by 1978, while also producing more than 700 frames per year."
"By the late 1970’s, Cinelli was the principle maker of stems and handlebars, as well as the OEM supplier to virtually every bike brand, while frame-making continued to increase as well, still relying on the basic design principles of his original Speciale Corsa frame from 1947."
Right.
It's weird for smd4 to obsess on that particular myth, especially since it's very unlikely that an individual could do each of the framebuilding tasks better than they could each be done by a specialist who is trained for, and performs that task, all day long.
I've got a custom built frame that I'll ride this afternoon, and I've never even wondered how many people were involved in its production. It's irrelevant to me. But then, I buy bikes to ride.
01-19-23, 12:43 PM
#565
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,253
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8261 Post(s)
Liked 8,998 Times
in
4,456 Posts
01-19-23, 12:52 PM
#566
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,850
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6941 Post(s)
Liked 10,944 Times
in
4,677 Posts
01-19-23, 12:58 PM
#567
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,253
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8261 Post(s)
Liked 8,998 Times
in
4,456 Posts
Try convincing smd4 of that.
01-20-23, 06:44 AM
#568
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,381
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4387 Post(s)
Liked 4,828 Times
in
2,984 Posts
Likes For PeteHski:
01-20-23, 06:46 AM
#569
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,756
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3492 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times
in
1,766 Posts
01-20-23, 06:48 AM
#570
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,381
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4387 Post(s)
Liked 4,828 Times
in
2,984 Posts
01-20-23, 06:54 AM
#571
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,756
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3492 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times
in
1,766 Posts
01-20-23, 07:10 AM
#572
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,381
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4387 Post(s)
Liked 4,828 Times
in
2,984 Posts
Likes For PeteHski:
01-20-23, 11:36 AM
#573
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,605
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10947 Post(s)
Liked 7,474 Times
in
4,181 Posts
01-20-23, 01:37 PM
#574
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,657
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1245 Post(s)
Liked 1,321 Times
in
673 Posts
Since you mention too much time on one’s hand. I am still playing around with this hand built myth. Even if we run with Cinelli bs numbers of 700+ per year much less the thousands by Colnago, Masi and the usual suspects. There are approximately 230 working days a year in Italy maximum so we are talking approximately 3 frames a day or 2.5 hours per frame in Cinelli case. Is that really something to be happy about.
01-20-23, 01:41 PM
#575
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,756
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3492 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times
in
1,766 Posts
Be happy about what? How much time it takes to make a frame? Not sure I'd really associate any emotion with that.