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Your opinions on the "run-up and drift back"

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Your opinions on the "run-up and drift back"

Old 07-03-19, 08:08 AM
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burnthesheep
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Your opinions on the "run-up and drift back"

Didn't put this in the 33 racer forum, it's not a race ride.

I'm talking about people doing whatever possible to filter through a group to get up front, then drifting back on hills. I'd totally see doing that in a race as a strategy.

But, this isn't a race. So, what's your opinions on this move for different types of group ride?

Regimented paceline: heck no, I would think
hammer or interval and regroup at stops: ????
fondos: ????

We've got someone doing this multiple times per group ride, to the extent they'll even go over the center yellow. And it's not just a filtering in anticipation of a hill to be in good position, it's in the last seconds before the hill and they'll run-up in a tuck or with power past the people pulling.

That's what you've got. What's your opinion? I feel the over the yellow is obviously bad, but what about the rest of it? When is that OK?

I thought I've heard people or seen it as actual advice for people before.

It's also at leaving stops. They do it there by jumping off quick.

Outside of a race, I find it annoying.
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Old 07-03-19, 08:21 AM
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Sounds to me like people who don't want to group ride, who happen to be at a group ride. If those folks want to ride their own pace, maybe they should find the proper venue to do that. I know that I deliberately avoid group rides because it's all but impossible to find one that would work with my pace-- I don't want to hammerfest all day like the fast group, and I certainly don't want to toodle along at 13mph like the non-fast group. I live in the netherspace between.

I wouldn't know how to bring it up to them, but it sounds like a discussion needs to happen, as their behavior would certainly qualify as distracting. And really, kinda uncool. Group ride party foul?
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Old 07-03-19, 08:24 AM
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Depends on the group. Know your group. Some are fine with this kind of behavior, some are not.
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Old 07-03-19, 08:25 AM
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I'm not quite sure that I'm following - this person is moving up to the front just before an uphill and drifting back during the climb? Is this person a large, non-climber type? What kind of hills?

Has the person been yelled at?
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Old 07-03-19, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep

Outside of a race, I find it annoying.
I'm not sure the behavior you mention would bother me. Having said that, there always seems to be something I find annoying in most group rides.
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Old 07-03-19, 08:32 AM
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Such is the fate of a confirmed "non-climber" during group rides. Sounds like the person has lots of torque and sprinting ability, but can't keep up with the group on climbs, so is trying to compensate. I'm the same way on group rides, can't climb for beans, but can usually out-sprint the pack if I survive until the end of the ride without getting dropped (which almost never happens).

Sadly, some of us were born for the velodrome, not the road.
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Old 07-03-19, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985
Such is the fate of a confirmed "non-climber" during group rides. Sounds like the person has lots of torque and sprinting ability, but can't keep up with the group on climbs, so is trying to compensate. I'm the same way on group rides, can't climb for beans, but can usually out-sprint the pack if I survive until the end of the ride without getting dropped (which almost never happens).
This is kinda what I was thinking, too, but wasn't quite sure based upon the description. I'm somewhat similar, though (I hope) not as obnoxious. 'Specially on rollers, I need to take all the momentum that gravity is giving me on the way down to get a run-up on the next slope. At that point, 15 secs of high-output might get me over the hill in the most painless manner. I often end up blowing by guys at this point, but only if it's a wide open road with lots of room.
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Old 07-03-19, 08:59 AM
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How about the opposite behavior- zip up the climb and then filter back on the descent? That's me, as climbing is easier at my W/kg but I don't dig descending.
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Old 07-03-19, 09:00 AM
  #9  
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There is a way to do what the OP describes without drama or drawing (much) attention. It can even be done elegantly so that it seems natural to the rest of the group.

Many times however, riders think they are being aggressive when all they are doing is wasting energy and putting themselves and the group at risk.

Lack of sophistication or even lack of control are endemic to some groups. I rode with such a group last weekend. Super nice people and gorgeous bikes but I won't ride with them again. They wern't smooth at all but all over the place, nobody working together, wound up fighting each other and I just didn't feel safe in the bunch.



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Old 07-03-19, 09:07 AM
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That's the problem with large group rides and too many riders with individual agendas.
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Old 07-03-19, 10:29 AM
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Being a much heavier rider relative to the rest of the group (40-70 lbs more), I end up being a RunUpDriftBacker on the hills. My weight advantage is on the downhills, so that's where I go hard, pass everyone else on the left, sometimes over the yellow if the coast is clear (which is something that's done all the time in cars) and go off the front on the entire downhill and as far into the upturn as possible, where my advantage gradually diminishes and the climbers catch and pass me. Not doing this surge, and just sitting-in would mean I get dropped on the climb sooner rather than later, and the result would be the group having to wait longer for me at the top of the hill. I selfishly do this to keep the group ride smoother for the climbers.
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Old 07-03-19, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
Didn't put this in the 33 racer forum, it's not a race ride.

I'm talking about people doing whatever possible to filter through a group to get up front, then drifting back on hills. I'd totally see doing that in a race as a strategy.

But, this isn't a race. So, what's your opinions on this move for different types of group ride?

Regimented paceline: heck no, I would think
hammer or interval and regroup at stops: ????
fondos: ????

We've got someone doing this multiple times per group ride, to the extent they'll even go over the center yellow. And it's not just a filtering in anticipation of a hill to be in good position, it's in the last seconds before the hill and they'll run-up in a tuck or with power past the people pulling.

That's what you've got. What's your opinion? I feel the over the yellow is obviously bad, but what about the rest of it? When is that OK?

I thought I've heard people or seen it as actual advice for people before.

It's also at leaving stops. They do it there by jumping off quick.

Outside of a race, I find it annoying.
Over the yellow is just bad form and should be called out. As far as going to the front on hills, as long as it doesn't interfere with the group dynamic, it's Ok. If they get to the hill and then block others progress up, that's also bad. On a hammer ride, let him go. If their time at the front is only these occasions, then again, not good. The behavior should not disrupt the point of the group ride.

It really is a group dynamic thing. If the group is Ok with it, then fine. If his behavior is a safety issue, then it's not fine.
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Old 07-03-19, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH
There is a way to do what the OP describes without drama or drawing (much) attention. It can even be done elegantly so that it seems natural to the rest of the group.

Many times however, riders think they are being aggressive when all they are doing is wasting energy and putting themselves and the group at risk.

Lack of sophistication or even lack of control
Tim has it closer to what I'm talking about.

I'm sure we have folks who do it eloquently and we never notice. Slip up a few spots sometime before they arrive where they need to do this totally unnoticed.

This, however, is an obvious move either made up the middle of a double line or over the yellow line on the left.

I like the advice of:

-pull longer instead of harder if you're stronger...tire yourself out to limit the difference up a hill or during a pull
-pull shorter or skip if you're weaker.....but don't be the sit on sprinter

My bet is multi-sport athlete who can ride the bike at a good pull for ages but can't surge and recover very well at all. There's heavier riders in the group who pass them on the hills.

Where was that article about the savings in a paceline or the peloton? I thought they debunked it and the savings was WAY more than 30%. Meaning, I wouldn't think a 2% grade or so should ever be enough to cause separation in a group that can hold their wheels to the person in front of them.

In a race, I know for sure 2% ain't nearly enough to get separation on a group.
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Old 07-03-19, 10:46 AM
  #14  
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I've been known to take this a big step further. I've ridden as the only fix gear out of several hundred riders. No, not "rides" as in "club", "paceline" and the like. Rides as in Cycle Oregon and charity rides but groups do inevitably form. In say steep rollers, my approach is very, very different from any on these smaller groups. At the top I usually crest pretty fast and am into a decent downhill speed quickly but I make zero effort to max out the downhill speed - until I start the roll into the next climb. On the steepest part of the descent, the riders I passed going up go flying by. Then it is insane spin time. I eventually catch, then pass those who passed me and keep pouring it on as long as I can to minimize the slow grunt as my big gear bogs me down.

And regarding the "individual agendas" CyclingFever mentions, yes. In fact those agendas are what make bicycle racing so interesting. In a disciplined training paceline, those individual agendas (based largely on those individual God-given gifts and challenges) mean that a given pace will be easy for some riders, a good workout for others and be taking still others to the max or be simply pure torture.

It sounds to me like the biggest problem of the riders doing what burnthesheep describes is that it upsets him (assuming they are doing those behaviors safely and responsibly which they clearly are not when they cross the yellow line, etc.). Another way you look at it - is the ride better off if those riders are dropped or it is better off if they can be there for say the flat 20 miles later after the hills? If they will be plus later, forgive them as they do their best to hang on in the manner they must take.

When I ride those rides fix gear, I'm not much use to anyone late in the ride. It's survival mode. (Though sometimes lucky ones get long steady fast rides behind me as I just ride to get to the showers.) Riding fixed is typically 25-33% harder than geared. Yes, I'm kinda selfish but my body reminds me later how much I have done!

Ben

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Old 07-03-19, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
Tim has it closer to what I'm talking about.

I'm sure we have folks who do it eloquently and we never notice. Slip up a few spots sometime before they arrive where they need to do this totally unnoticed.

This, however, is an obvious move either made up the middle of a double line or over the yellow line on the left.

I like the advice of:

-pull longer instead of harder if you're stronger...tire yourself out to limit the difference up a hill or during a pull
-pull shorter or skip if you're weaker.....but don't be the sit on sprinter

My bet is multi-sport athlete who can ride the bike at a good pull for ages but can't surge and recover very well at all. There's heavier riders in the group who pass them on the hills.

Where was that article about the savings in a paceline or the peloton? I thought they debunked it and the savings was WAY more than 30%. Meaning, I wouldn't think a 2% grade or so should ever be enough to cause separation in a group that can hold their wheels to the person in front of them.

In a race, I know for sure 2% ain't nearly enough to get separation on a group.
This post makes your OP even more unclear to me.
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Old 07-03-19, 11:48 AM
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I was postulating as to why they might do it. That's why I was talking about the % grade and how much help the draft is.

It's upsetting to have someone force you make an evasive maneuver because they're coming back in from over the center line or in an area where there isn't space for a third wide rider (road narrows) and you're left dealing with their decision.

Last night I see a center lane divider coming up on the 2 lane road where it would make it tough to fit 3-wide for a 1/4 mile right as this person expects to squeeze back in from their jaunt over the yellow.

Also, when we're in a 2x line.......coming up the middle of the two lines is a bit crap too.
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Old 07-03-19, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
I was postulating as to why they might do it. That's why I was talking about the % grade and how much help the draft is.

It's upsetting to have someone force you make an evasive maneuver because they're coming back in from over the center line or in an area where there isn't space for a third wide rider (road narrows) and you're left dealing with their decision.

Last night I see a center lane divider coming up on the 2 lane road where it would make it tough to fit 3-wide for a 1/4 mile right as this person expects to squeeze back in from their jaunt over the yellow.

Also, when we're in a 2x line.......coming up the middle of the two lines is a bit crap too.
I've never seen this in a group ride even race/rides. Doesn't even make sense logically to burn matches sprinting to the front last min just to be at the front at the start of the hill. What is more common at least around here is to simply try to time your pulls so you're near the front when it starts or it there's a downhill prior use momentum to get around towards the front at the base
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Old 07-03-19, 12:59 PM
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There is no reason why you cannot ride 3-wide in one lane. How do you manage when people rotate off the front? At times, it would be 4 wide. Maybe you need to ride a tighter double pace line?

And yes, for those who are not strong climbers, going to the front, and maybe even off the front, at the base of a climb then riding at your own, slower pace as the group rides up at a faster pace, then attaching on to the back at the top of the climb is a recognized strategy that is employed by many.
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Old 07-03-19, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
I was postulating as to why they might do it. That's why I was talking about the % grade and how much help the draft is.
I'm postulating on why they might do it, too, which is why I has asked for clarification on what kind of terrain we were talking about and what kind of a physique the rider has. I wouldn't call 2% incline a hill and I wouldn't see why it would drive someone, literally and figuratively, to jump out of line.

Originally Posted by burnthesheep
It's upsetting to have someone force you make an evasive maneuver because they're coming back in from over the center line or in an area where there isn't space for a third wide rider (road narrows) and you're left dealing with their decision.

Last night I see a center lane divider coming up on the 2 lane road where it would make it tough to fit 3-wide for a 1/4 mile right as this person expects to squeeze back in from their jaunt over the yellow.

Also, when we're in a 2x line.......coming up the middle of the two lines is a bit crap too.
Yell at them.
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Old 07-03-19, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro
There is no reason why you cannot ride 3-wide in one lane. How do you manage when people rotate off the front? At times, it would be 4 wide. Maybe you need to ride a tighter double pace line?

And yes, for those who are not strong climbers, going to the front, and maybe even off the front, at the base of a climb then riding at your own, slower pace as the group rides up at a faster pace, then attaching on to the back at the top of the climb is a recognized strategy that is employed by many.
They didn't exactly make the road wider where the divider was installed. Meaning, it's much narrower than where we do rotate off and are 4-wide. They pretty much at some point appear to have installed it to prevent cars making left turns at that part of the road.

It's not a good spot to pull off for your turn either way. So, there's that.

Given that it's recognized, any protocol for how to do it the right way versus the wrong way? That's the "eloquence" part we're asking about.

You could do it like a bull in a china shop or you could do it like a waiter in a fine restaurant. I feel the difference matters.
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Old 07-03-19, 01:43 PM
  #21  
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This is not that complicated. As most of you know, I've done maybe 1000 group rides and led a couple hundred or so. Some people climb faster than others. Club rides do usually wait for folks to catch up, but most groups do not, and particularly pick-up groups on big rides never ever wait. Racer rides usually can hang together, although I've seen even pro groups develop huge gaps. Also, some people descend faster than others. They're usually the ones who climb a little slower.

It's not just one individual who has a problem. Everyone in a group ride has slightly different abilities. Run a group long enough, in hilly enough terrain which includes some 10% stuff, and no group will hang together if they strictly hold position in the group. They'll string out a mile down the road and it's not a group ride anymore. In a group ride you have to ride your strengths, trying to make up for your weaknesses.

There's a lot of position movement in groups. It's normal. That said, if I were in a group ride and people were coming up the middle on climbs, I'd quickly drop to the back to get out of there. One injury can ruin your whole season.

As far as going over the yellow line on a clear road, I don't see any issue at all with that. As has been said, cars do it. Where I do have an issue is with riders who seem oblivious to what's going on around them and just ride out in the middle of the road, ignoring traffic behind them. I call that out. I also have an issue with groups which spread out all across the lane on short, steep, blind climbs, forcing traffic down to 6 mph. I see that sometimes in front of me. Why in front of me? Because I'm experienced enough not to be there. Silly ego people.

If you want to see all this taken to an extreme, try riding with tandems. Our group now has 7 tandems in it, though usually only 3 or 4 show up. I usually ride tandem in the group now. Yeah, on much of a descent, the tandems will pass the entire group, then pull to the right and let the singles, or at least the faster climbers, go by, then repeat the process on the next hill. We can usually stay with the group doing this. We pay for this behavior by doing some towing. Eventually most riders learn to never pass a tandem right before the crest of a hill.

I think I see the OP's issue: the people he rides with pay no attention to the law or traffic. That would be a good start. Ride single file as far to the right as is safe, only pull out to pass when the road is clear from behind. Ride like you're a car. If those folks don't want to ride sensibly, find other people to ride with. My group jettisons those who won't obey the rules. Makes it dangerous for everyone. I've never had a group ride accident or been in a group which had one. Ride with people whom you know to be safe, consistent, competent, courteous riders.

If the group gets too big, order it to be broken into sections, maybe 6-8 riders each, far enough apart so that cars can easily fit between groups. Get the groups to order themselves by speed. When I was younger, I used to run the groups from back to front, straightening things out. It takes some discipline on the part of each puller not to try to close the gap with the group ahead. Fast people can pull out and bridge up to the group ahead. After a while that all should happen by itself.
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Old 07-03-19, 01:50 PM
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That's me. Slow on hills and fast on flats.
What annoys me is riding with guys that yo yo on the flats.
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Old 07-03-19, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mvnsnd
Over the yellow is just bad form and should be called out. As far as going to the front on hills, as long as it doesn't interfere with the group dynamic, it's Ok. If they get to the hill and then block others progress up, that's also bad. On a hammer ride, let him go. If their time at the front is only these occasions, then again, not good. The behavior should not disrupt the point of the group ride.

It really is a group dynamic thing. If the group is Ok with it, then fine. If his behavior is a safety issue, then it's not fine.
A few years ago on my area, a rider was killed on a descent where he ran head on into a car. Double yellow lines should not be crossed. Yes, bad form.
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Old 07-03-19, 02:15 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro
There is no reason why you cannot ride 3-wide in one lane. How do you manage when people rotate off the front? At times, it would be 4 wide. Maybe you need to ride a tighter double pace line?

And yes, for those who are not strong climbers, going to the front, and maybe even off the front, at the base of a climb then riding at your own, slower pace as the group rides up at a faster pace, then attaching on to the back at the top of the climb is a recognized strategy that is employed by many.
Yes, I do this. Especially rides that don’t wait. It no different than small guys not pulling when the big boys are throwing down in a crosswind.
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Old 07-03-19, 02:25 PM
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banerjek
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
I've been known to take this a big step further. I've ridden as the only fix gear out of several hundred riders.
This is a bit of a different issue -- your power curve is different which inevitably influences the appropriate riding style. I encounter this same effect when I'm on my 'bents.

As Carbonfiberboy puts it, it's no big deal. This is what it boils down to:
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
...I think I see the OP's issue: the people he rides with pay no attention to the law or traffic. ...If those folks don't want to ride sensibly, find other people to ride with....

...Ride with people whom you know to be safe, consistent, competent, courteous riders. ... After a while that all should happen by itself.
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