FinkFloyd

I've been looking around t'internet at various track frames recently and been struck by how difficult it seems to be to get hold of most of them (particularly the high-end stuff). Is there any reason for this? If I look for road or TT framesets, even previous model-year ones that have been discontinued, they seem to be available to some extent from dealers. If I look for some of the higher-end track stuff, conversely, it seems to be near-impossible to find - Velodrome Shop can source some of it but I haven't much enjoyed dealing with them in the past.

Is there some secret society which you have to join to get hold of this stuff? I like the look of the BT track frames (although I gather they're crazily expensive) but their website is not, shall we say, cutting edge in terms of its user-friendliness. Similarly, I can't see anyone really who sell Look track frames. Any thoughts appreciated.

Morelock

Basically, "track" frames (not counting fixies, but truly dedicated track machines) are VERY VERY low sellers for a manufacturer. Most shops don't stock them, and while they (mostly) aren't custom orders, they are the next step from it. If you want an Avanti, BT, Look, etc, you can certainly get your hands on one, but not with the same ease as buying a Madone. Even the more common high end track frames (Fuji Elite / Cervelo T4 /etc) are looowwww sellers. I think when I bought my track elite the Fuji rep said they sold under a thousand a year. A big dealer (R&A cycles for LOOK) is where you'll be able to source a lot of those frames, or a direct order.

You don't usually see a lot of closeouts on last years model for the same reasons... along with the fact that track bikes evolve VERY slowly (again partially because of the low demand) so a 5 year old Cervelo T4 is basically the same as the current model, and since they don't just stock showrooms with them, they linger on for the next year. In the used market you run into the same situation for all "high end" track equipment... if someone drops $4k+ on a track frame, it's waaaay more likely they are serious about track (and likely to stay interested in it) than your average "one and done" triathlete who might sell a $10k bike after having it a half a year.

queerpunk

yup. low volume and very modest evolution. everything stems from there.

the flip side is that it means that sometimes, some twenty-year-old products can be nearly top-of-the-line - or at least extremely raceable with few if any tangible drawbacks.

carleton

Yup.

The current Felt TK FRD is only slightly modified from the original Felt TK1 from 2009 (or earlier?) and is virtually the same as the 2012 model after they added the current seat mast topper and lighter fork.

The current LOOK R96 is only slightly different that the LOOK 496 Athene (2006?), the major differences are the integrated seat mast and proprietary cranks (both huge downgrades in my humble opinion) and the indexed stem system (instead of friction).

Who wouldn't ride the hell out of this (with some modern bars on it)?:


The Koga Kimera from around 2008 or so was raced well and won golds at Worlds a few weeks ago...round 27.2mm seatpost and all.

The BT Edge from around 2009 or 2010 is still in use today.

I find it odd that road and MTB manufacturers got into an arms race and put themselves on an annual product release schedule.

sarals 

@carleton, how did you get the graphics off of that thing? I've been trying to get the decals off of my Planet X five spoke (FFWD 5T, really), and can not do it.

carleton

Every company is different. The wheels above are Mavic IO and Comete. The decals were above the clear coat, so hair dryer to warm them up a bit and a fingernail were enough to peel them off.

One of the deal-breakers for me and FFWD were the loud graphics that were under the clear coat. IMHO, they are obnoxious and don't mate well aesthetically with any bike, even if the bike's colors are red, black, and white.

I think their sales would double if they either put the decals on top so people can remove them (like Mavic does), or offer some without decals.

Anywho...

I removed the decals from my Scattos. But, this required a lot of elbow grease wet-sanding and then respraying them with clear coat. I wouldn't do this for wheels.



So, the short answer is: You might be stuck with the decals. I've never heard of anyone removing them from any FFWD wheels.


Ha! I just noticed that, on a related note, I also removed the obnoxious "ZIPP" decals from my 808s in this pic. There were literally 6 huge decals on each wheel for 12 total. Really? The saving grace is that they were removable.

Edit: I realize now that you don't have a FFWD wheel but Planet X. But, the thing about deals under the clear coat is probably the same. If you can't peel up an edge with your nail, then the decals have a layer of clear paint on top and getting to the decals will be a PITA.

sarals 

@carleton, thanks. The Planet X does not have anything over the decals. However, they're very thin and tightly adhered to the carbon. I've tried heat, I've tried acetone, fingernail polish, etc - nothing seems to budge them. I'm about to give up.

As for the FFWD wheels, I like the way they look. They do offer black and white graphics now, I've noticed.

carleton

My guess is that the clearcoat is so thin that you can feel the thickness of the vinyl decal, but still can't get under it due to the paint. This is just a guess, though. I'm sure you've peeled off thousands of stickers before. The decals are just stickers.

Or they could be painted on (highly unlikely, though).

Maybe have someone else have a look for a second opinion.

Just checked the website. The 5 spoke and disc are still red, black, and white. Deep dish spoked wheels are white on black. All are still large and not my style.

Why not be subtle and removable like this?:




Horses for courses, I guess

sarals 

I have peeled off stickers, and these have me stumped. They're applied right to the carbon, and there's nothing on top of them - the finish on the wheel is the natural matt. The edge of the decals/stickers/whatever can be seen and felt. I wouldn't think of trying to scrape them off, that will surely risk damaging a really nice wheel.

Maybe I should just leave them alone....

I have a bike I need to take to Calfee to have a hole in the frame repaired (stupid, the bike on the vertical rack above it fell on it and the chainring punched a hole in the top tube), and I'll bring that wheel along to get their opinion.

taras0000

Try soaking the edges with WD40 or mineral oil (baby oil). The baby oil works better for heavier substances, WD40 for thinner ones. Baby Oil is pretty much a miracle cleaner, you just then need to soap and water clean afterward. A baby oil hand rubbing, followed by a regular soap and water wash has gotten my hands cleaner (from grease, oil, paints, other industrial substances) than any pumice based hand cleaner ever has, and it leaves my calluses intact for work. It will dissolve or at least weaken/soften most glues that are used for stickers/decals as well.

sarals 

@taras0000, thank you, that's a great tip! I'll try it.

sarals 

Hey, @carleton? I just found this:

https://a.co/fJ9LP2G

carleton

They have 2 front discs in white. Maybe the rear disc and 5 spoke will be offered in white soon?

sarals 

I'd like to think so! Progress, right?

brawlo

Those high end manufacturers don't seem to advertise, and I guess the principle argument could be because they just don't have to. Make something rare and expensive and people will want it, no matter if it is actually better or not. I can personally speak on behalf of BT and say they are communicative via email. Sometimes they may get busy and take a little longer to get back, but I found them very approachable when I was thinking about a frame, and still very approachable and prompt when I ordered my BT sprint bars a couple of years ago. I can't vouch for their current promptness however.

Track frames don't really evolve very often. Commonly you will see any evolution centre around the Olympic cycle. Koga may be the odd one out here with their recent new frame announcement right in the middle of a cycle. What I take from the track world is that trackies seem to be much more of a function over form kind of bunch, while road riders are the opposite. With all this stiff this ultralight that going on in the road world, there have been very few developments besides say handlebars and rider wear that have taken on the track. Take a look at the ultra fast Dutchies and their "old school" Koga frames

carleton

My guess is that the Dutch are going to use the new Koga frame extensively to test it out before committing to avoid having an untested frame under their riders. Maybe test them for 9-12 months during a full cycle of training, Nationals, World Cups, and World Championships, and see how they hold up. This also gives them time to fix and remake the frames if the issues aren't catastrophic. Or ditch the new frame for the old and use the old frames for the 1 year lead up to the Olympics.

- Summer 2018 to Summer 2019: Use New Frame
- After 2019 World Championships, evaluate and determine if new frame is actually better than old.
- Use best frame (old or new) for Summer 2019 - Summer 2020 Olympics

This way they make the absolute best choice...not just riding the new stuff because it's new.

Then there is the rider's confidence in the frame. If the ladies and gentlemen have been thrashing the frames about for nearly 2 years, they'll have utmost confidence in pouring 100% into them. This avoids the ever so slight bit of caution that we all have with new gear.

They are obviously contenders in most events and their current tried and true frame is doing just fine.

The best case scenario is that they get some marginal advantage (even if that advantage is psychological). The worst case scenario is that the frame has some fatal flaws (unexpected handling, flexiness, seatpost issues, stem issues, headset issues, unexpected drag, etc...) any of which could be enough to knock a rider out of contention.

The current Koga works. It's fine. No complaints (that I'm aware of). So, this new frame has a high standard to meet.

carleton

On a related note, Team USA got their GT Superbikes either at the 1996 Olympics or days before.

This bike was radically different than the bikes the they'd been training on:

SB-1 (Aluminum...basically a Tiemeyer (Mr. Tiemeyer was on the GT engineering team)):


SB-2 (Carbon. No seat stay + no top tube = flexy):


I recall a conversation with one of the athletes who raced one of these at the Olympics and his comment was something like: You don't want to change your shoe laces before a big event...and here we were on brand new frames going into the Olympics.

Baby Puke

I heard the rider pictured above (Rebecca Twigg) hated the new bike and refused to ride it.

carleton

lol yeah. She left DURING the Olympics.


Wikipedia:

Morelock

Project 96 was a disaster for US cycling. Something we're only now starting to pull out of.

All that money poured into a project to develop an ahead of it's time bike... then the on team drama and maybe more damning... to get absolutely demolished by folk on round tube steel bikes. (and likely some other stuff as well...)

brawlo

I think you would find that with modern computer modelling that frames are pretty damn good straight out of the box. Added to that, Koga has a very good reputation of building a good stiff bike both on track and road. I lusted after one of their road models but found that they had ceased importing into Australia around 6 months before I was buying. These frames very rarely hit the public domain untested. There would be lots of closed session work with them well before we would even know that things are happening.

On a related note, I think where Cervelo may have gone wrong with the Brits was their lack of experience in building something that is sprint orientated. That was a whole new field of development for them and they seemed to struggle with the concept. Also worth noting was their final product was a frame that could not accommodate the UKSI disc that untold money was spent on developing in previous years and they had to use the Campag disc in its place.

carleton

Yup. The devil is in the details. All it takes is a single issue to be a deal breaker. For example, they are using a new seatpost, stem, fork, and track ends systems.

Also, the stresses that track sprinters put on bikes are extreme. Felt didn’t foresee the many seatpost and seat mast topper issues it would have (and have fixed after a few years of iterations). I can’t imagine anyone ever laying 2,500W into any sort of Cervelo until the last Olympics.

The “wheelhouse” of Cervelo and Felt were 165lb triathletes and roadies. Not 225lb power lifters.

I think Koga will eventually have it perfect. I think the team needs to know if the 1st generation is perfect.

brawlo

Perhaps it is a good marketing move by them. Perhaps they will basically pick up 2 years worth of sales while all the others are still working on frame project Tokyo. I can't help but wonder what the Beat team will do, if they stick with their Avantis or if they move to the new Koga (I guess that deal is in the sponsorship detail)

Then where is the T5? I think I read somewhere that it is buy-able but for a rather large sum. Look and BT have it right I think with a high end frame and price tag, yet still within the realms of being somewhat affordable.

Also worth noting that the Felt, for the woes that you speak of @carleton is the stiffest frame that a friend has ever ridden, and he's now riding a BT!

carleton

I lust after BTs. I want a Stealth but with a head tube tall enough to be suitable for a middle-aged man, hahaha.

Real talk. My Felt's seat mast and topper have been solid for the most part. It does rock back and forth a smidge as though it's hitting the walls of the indexes. And the bayonet stem system sort of allows slack in every now and then after rigorous standing start sessions. I imagine this is due to me breaking it in and it should settle in soon. I can always install a standard fork and use standard stems.

Part of me wants to start a bike company...but I don't want to be in the bike company business. I had really high hopes for Hoy to make a top-notch sprint frame being that's his thing and he's got a engineer's type of mind and he's been exposed to a lot on Team GB. Maybe someone should scoop him up and make him a Product Owner and direct what features go into the next world class frames.

carleton

I've read a lot on the internet about bike frames, but I've yet to come across any solid answer as to why round seatposts are being ditched for aero ones.

The assumption is: "Because aero, duh."

But, I've never run across a study that said that something like, "Round seatposts create x-percent more drag than an aero seatpost...."

Yeah, I know that teardrop is perferred to round in terms of reducing aero drag. But, that's if the frame is tested without a rider. If the frame is 100% of what's being tested, then sure, the seatpost's shape would matter. But, the bike is only about 10% of the entire aero picture and the frame some smaller percentage and the seatpost an even smaller percentage. I'd venture to guess less than 1%. Even if we are talking about CdA:




What if 2 frames, one round seatpost and one aero seatpost, and all other things being equal, completely built up with a rider pedaling at 90-140 RPM, were tested. I wonder how much difference there would be then. I'd imagine we are talking about a teaspoonful of water missing from the ocean.

Also, what's wrong with "winged" seatposts like this where it's round at the insertion point and aero above. You buy the post that's appropriate (small, medium, or large):





Best of both worlds...assuming the frame would accept a round post.