fooferdoggie 

for me its amazing. Never thought I could do that well. I eng=joy riding my ebbed far more then I ever did my road bike or recumbent. I wish it did not weight 52 points or 70 pounds when I have my bag and locks and such. but I can carry my groceries without loosing a lot of speed.

Pop N Wood

Why does this matter so much to you?

Or do you just like calling people names?

PeteHski

Yet only a few pages ago you were completely clueless about e-bikes that didn’t use a crude throttle or cadence sensor and still kept asserting that motor maximum power is the only relevant parameter.

What I’ve learnt from this thread is that there are some e-bikes that have very little in common with the ethos of cycling (we could call theses e-mopeds, where the pedals are largely superfluous).

But true e-bikes designed for recreational sport are nothing like this and are very closely related to traditional cycling. They merely augment human cycling power output without otherwise diluting the experience. The latest generation of lightweight road e-bikes, such as the Specialized Turbo Creo SL, are basically road race bikes with a subtle power boost proportional to your own output.

PeteHski

250W is a decent output for an average club rider, so why would you want more power assist than that on a “bicycle”? The trend in e-bikes for sport use is to make them as light as possible, so you don’t want a big motor and heavy assed battery. The other trend is to make the pedalling feel as natural as possible so you still get the fitness benefit while increasing your speed. The concept is that you still pedal as you would on a normal bicycle with the same power and cadence, the only difference being that you get an additional proportional power assist.

An “e-bike” with a large motor and throttle is a form of transport, not a recreational sport. Both have their uses, but are radically different.

kingston 

Again you mistake ambivalence for ignorance. Despite your annoying habit of picking nits and repeating yourself over and over, I think we actually agree on the motor size thing.

PeteHski

I would hardly call it picking nits and your ambivalence isn’t much use to others in this kind of thread. But yeah I’m not going to flog this dead horse any further.

KPREN

Your definitions are irrelevant. E bikes are clearly defined in the USA.

The torque sensing bikes make up about 95% of the world market for e bikes. Only in the western societies does anybody want anything to do with torque sensing Torque sensed bikes are only half an e bike. and I am unaware of any torque sensed systems suitable for heavy work. Torque sensed bikes are for people whom want an exercise machine and somehow cannot get past the stigma of it being an exercise machine. Everyone says they want something that feels like a regular bike, like what? a Huffy. Once you get use to a cadence bike you would never want a torque sensed bike. It only took me 6,000 miles or so to get use to it and never want a torque sensed bike.
Do I go up and down all the time on levels? Yeah, I shift all the time too. My thumb does not feel overworked. There is a world of difference in torque sensing and cadence sensing when you load up the bike and want to do 100+ miles a day with lots of steep climbs. 250 watts max and a 500 watt hour battery on torque sensing is a total no go for heavy work.

Call it what you would like but I have a real e bike capable of actually doing something more than exercise.

PeteHski

I thought this was a cycling forum were the only relevant form of e-bike would be for sport and exercise. Hauling stuff around sounds more like a transport thing to me. An eco alternative to a truck or motorbike.

I’m not knocking your setup by the way. It looks like a cool way of exploring the landscape. It’s just a very different concept to the sort of e-bike I could see myself riding in the future - which is much closer to a conventional bicycle.

kingston 

What's the definition? This is a genuine question. I honestly don't know. I thought there were federal, state and local laws that are all so inconsistent and confusing that people just ride whatever they want.

Ed Wiser

I watch this YouTube channel on ebike’s and learned there is a tax break coming for ebike.
Good news as I plan on buying one next year.

350htrr

The answer is what ever the laws say where you live, THAT is the definition of an E-Bike...

I just do not agree, with the laws here in N America, totally stupid to legislate a motorized vehicle (that can be used as a motorized vehicle) as a bicycle IMO

BUT, BUT, wait a minute I also think a little assistance does not make it a motorized vehicle (250 to 350 watts, with a torque sensor), and thus agree with the EU, E-Bike laws because there, you MUST pedal or you go nowhere... (and not just phantom pedaling that you can do with the rotation sensors or throttles). that you are allowed here in N America and not in the EU. That isn't just my way of thinking about what an E-Bike is, it's a whole bunch of countries way of thinking, (using a bit of common sense)...

350htrr

Really, 6,000 miles to get used to it... It took me 1 Km to get used to my E-Assist bicycle with a torque sensor... Why...??? You might ask. Because it was exactly the same riding my E-Assist bike with a torque sensor as riding my regular bike, ( except it felt like I was always riding with a tailwind at my back|)...

As for the no go with the 250 or even the 500 watt motor... I guess you really need a motor bike. NOT a motor bike disguised as a bicycle... JMO

fooferdoggie 

I took my first test ride on a hub bike then a mid drive it was like night and day. except for hills I never use all the assist anymore. I just like more speed up hills.

shelbyfv

And yet by common sense and general usage, that's an accurate description of all ebikes, or at least the ones with motors. Not that there's anything wrong with that....

fooferdoggie 

I took my first test ride on a hub bike then a mid drive it was like night and day. except for hills I never use all the assist anymore. I just like more speed up hills. but on my commuter e bike I will do this 20% grade in tour and put out 400 watts climbing I at 10mph. its only a block but its fun we even do it on our tandem.

Pop N Wood

Sorry for altering your response but THAT, I'm starting to think, is the primary cause of angst in the whole ebike discussion.

People who truly hate on ebike, excluding the obvious trolls of course, tend to look at bikes as sport and not transport.

Pop N Wood

HR 727 is how congress defines a "low power ebike"

Notice a few things. The definition does define a power output, no clarity whether that is battery draw or motor output, no ruling on whether the power limit is software enforced. No mention of speed limits (need to read that part carefully). No mention of throttles. They claim it supersedes any state law that is more restrictive.

People who quote the "classes" of ebike are repeating California's laws. They do not apply nationally. And who the hell wants to follow California's race to the bottom?

Pop N Wood

Ride one and you tell me.

Like I said, if you have more power you don't have to use it. But if you don't have the power, you will never know.

Think cargo bike loaded down with kids and groceries. Even Lance in his cheating prime would have an issue riding such a bike up any extended grade unassisted. Now think soccer mom trying to get kids somewhere without driving.

Think fat bike in going up hill in rough terrain covered in a foot of snow. 1/3 of a horsepower won't get you there.

PeteHski

e-bikes where you actually have to pedal at a decent power output to obtain a proportional level of power assistance (typically in the range of 25-100% assistance) are a LOT more like bicycles than motorbikes - which require zero Watts of human power and don't even have pedals. These e-bikes you see in the US with powerful motors and pedals that are there merely as a token gesture are the ones that are really pedal-operated motorbikes. If you only need to pedal those at a nominal 10W to get up to 1000W motor power, then they have little in common with a bicycle.

Basically there are e-bikes designed to be just like bicycles but with limited proportional power assistance. Then there are e-bikes which are nothing more than electric motorbikes with pedals that are largely superfluous. Maybe they give you a spin bike workout while you are motoring along? Both types have their legitimate uses, but the latter don't interest me as a cyclist. But I could see myself riding a decent e-mtb and e-road bike at some point in the future when I lose some of my own power either through old age or health issues. They could easily extend my riding time by a decade or more and not have to accept crawling along at ever slower speeds.

PeteHski

Why did you even do that? It's not what I said is it? If you want to make up your own quote then do that instead. But don't alter my quotes to make it look like I said something I absolutely didn't.

Just so we are clear I don't personally hate any e-bikes. But there are definitely very different types of e-bike. Some are very much aimed at sport and recreation and others are more in the transport sector.

PeteHski

I totally get these usage cases. Although where I live they are not even legally allowed on the road, so they don't exist in public places. But do you get the concept of an e-bike that is much more like an actual bicycle? You don't generally haul kids and their gear around on a conventional bicycle. You ride them primarily for fun, exercise and maybe commuting.

My 2 daughters both have e-bikes. One has a 175W motor and the other 250W. The 175W motor provides our 8 year old with a 7W/kg power ratio - enough to thrash a World Tour pro up a steep hill. I have ridden the 250W version myself to see what it was like and again I can climb like a World Tour Pro if I put in my own 250W of effort to make it a 500W total. It's a fair bit heavier than my own road bike, but 250W is still quite a lot of additional power in the context of a "bicycle". 250W is the difference between a very ordinary rider and a top level pro.

Pop N Wood

Not sure where you live but chance are they are legal on the road if they have turn signals, horn, insurance etc.

kingston 

It's a lot more complicated than you imply since every state and lots of cities have their own laws, which are different from the federal law, so it would be impossible for anyone to know them all. From the little research I have done, it seems like the maximum legal limit is pretty consistently 1hp (750w) and 20 mph.

KPREN

Be careful what you wish for. You are proposing to legislate to keep bicycles in the dark ages for practical utility use. In other words, collecting dust in most garages while the car remains king.

Four years ago I made a prediction and was laughed out of a forum. I predicted that e bikes would outsell regular bikes in the LBS two to one within 10 years. I was off by a factor of two. My new prediction is that the EU standard will fall and the EU standard will rise to 750 watts, then to 1,000 to 1,500 watts. The speed limit will rise to 40 kph and stay put. I also predict that the biggest sellers in EU will be front loading box cargo bikes. The SUV's of the biking world.

Why? Because it takes power to move weight and the grid and the economy cannot support a big influx of electric cars. 250 watts will not haul around 400-500lb. That takes a bare minimum of 750 watts even to go the measly 15mph and hills, forget it. Torque sensing? Yeah right just imagine a cargo with two kids and groceries getting to the top of a big hill. The parent is now whipped with two fresh toddlers and groceries to put away. Come on, just so you can protect your exercise machine? No, 5% of the biking will be for the purpose of exercise.

Stop and take a look where the politicians and zealots are taking us with energy.. My prediction is a natural solution/evolution.

My next touring dirt bicycle is apt to be a front loading cargo with a 200 mile range if the western bike zealots don't get to keep things to themselves.
I will make another prediction. You cannot put that many bikes onto the present infrastructure. New and better infrastructure will appear and different rules will pop up to deal with the volume. . .

KPREN

When you advocate limiting to 250 watts and 15 mph you are very much advocating eliminating that soccer mom hauling kids and groceries. As for not allowed on the roads? Every state here in the USA allow it. Where do you live where there are no e cargo bikes and e fat bikes allowed?