dashuaigeh

I think I've got a fairly good idea of how older Shimano component groups (up to around the Dura-Ace 7402...anything that still had DT shifters ) are ordered in terms of quality, lightness, weight, etc (value?). I don't know much on the vintage Campy side of things though; could anyone give me a quick idea of Campy componentry? From what I can see, the ordering goes something like this

Super Record
Record
Chorus
Athena
Centaur
Veloce
Mirage

ordered with best at top. However, I've heard the naming is a bit less consistent with Campy from year to year, and that the era of the groupset matters a lot in terms of its value. Is this accurate?

cudak888 

The hierarchy has changed dramatically throughout the era; yours is quite recent.

I'll start with mid-1980's, and bear in mind this doesn't take into account every exception or timeframe:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1980's/mid-1980's:

TOP-END:
C-Record - introduced 1984
50th Anniversary - 1983 only
Super Record - until 1987, dropped from catalogs well before
Nuovo Record - same story as SR

MID-RANGE:
Victory/Victory LX - introduced 1984/5, renamed Victory S3 in 1987. Coexisted with Nuovo Gran Sport; never shown in the same catalogs. Product line placement in reference to N.G.S. is ambiguous. Triomphe and Victory were essentially a two-tier replacement for the outgoing Nuovo Gran Sport group.
Triomphe/Triomphe LX - introduced 1984/5, renamed Triomphe S3 in 1987. Same deal as Victory.
Nuovo Gran Sport - dropped from catalog in 1986, probably produced until 1987. Was Campag's economy full-group back in the '70s.
"Touring" group: Mix of Nuovo Gran Sport components with second-gen Rally RD and 116 BCD crankset that was re-styled for Victory and Triomphe, shown in 1985 catalog.

ECONOMY:
990 - front and rear derailer only, cosmetic revamp of 980, introduced 1987
980 - front and rear derailer only, superseded by 990 in 1986
Valentino Extra - derailers only, dropped 1986 according to catalogs

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1970's era:

TOP-END:
Super Record - top end when introduced 1974, dethroned Nuovo Record
Nuovo Record - top end when introduced 1967 (1966 at trade shows), dethroned Record
Record - original steel Record introduced 1963, dethroned Gran Sport as top of the line. Phased out in the '70s
Gran Sport - dropped in 1973 for introduction of Nuovo Gran Sport in 1974, never a full group

MID-RANGE:
Nuovo Gran Sport - introduced 1974; fate listed in the 1980's category

ECONOMY - nothing below is a full group, neither are they in order (because they don't deserve it):
Gran Turismo - horrid touring RD
Valentino/Valentino Extra - FD/RD set
Sport - Gran Sport RD w/single jockey wheel
Some others not worth mentioning

-Kurt

Amani576

And to elaborate a little on what Kurt said, Campy had very few products before the 1970's.
Before the introduction of Record in '63, Gran Sport was top of the line. I'm not sure what other derailleurs they made other than that before then, I do believe there was a single pulley model that sold horribly and was quickly phased out (perhaps the "Sport" Kurt listed). Before Gran Sport was Paris-Roubaix which was a single lever version of the supremely nifty Cambio-Corsa. Mainly what they made up until the 70's was hubs and quick releases. Some derailleurs, but I don't believe a groupset existed before Nuovo Record.
-Gene-

cudak888 

There was a theme going at this point too:

Gran Sport - unseated by Record. Record gets unseated by Nuovo Record, Nuovo Record then kicked out by Super. C-Record kicked the entire lot out after a short time, then the C prefix was dropped, reverting the name back to Record.

Campagnolo hasn't tired of this either. 2010 is here, and Record once again takes a back seat to the new Super Record 11.

By contrast, Shimano's top components only had one name change (Crane became Dura-Ace), but the top has always remained Dura-Ace. Even DI-2 is technically an upgrade kit for/variant of mainstay Dura-Ace. The expectation for Campagnolo's naming convention to follow this pattern is where many folks get confused.

Bingo.

Also correct. Nuovo Record was the first group with a brakeset; also Campagnolo's first brakeset, period.

-Kurt

dashuaigeh

That's probably why I know Shimano componenetry better. Thanks for these explanations; they help a lot.

cudak888 

That said, here's my own, simplistic, personal perspective of how I rank Campy's bits throughout the years. I lettered groups which are quite close to each other in quality, but have little features that - I feel - make them just that much better or worse than the group next to it. Scream at me if you wish:

1A. C-Record with RD B-screw, Cobalto brakes in group
1B. Victory
1C. Super Record/50th

2A. Nuovo Record/Record
2B. Gran Sport

3. C-Record first-gen w/sprung RD top pivot, Cobalto brakes in group
4. Nuovo Gran Sport
5. Triomphe/980/990
6. Valentino Extra
7. Dirt
8. Gran Turismo

-Kurt

Bianchigirll 

Also there was a lowend group for a few years int eh early '90s called Xenonn, plus for a few short years there was the Croce De Anue which apparently was not very good as Campy dropped it pretty quick.

there was also a Centar offroad group at onetime (IIRC) and also Olympus

off road although again shortlived Euclid, Centar, Olympus, then most of these dropped by the wayside and Record OR took over.

Record also had tandem parts as a variation at one time, one of the most unusual things I ever saw was a 1 1/4 threaded Record Headset on a Santana

Grand Bois

Were early Record derailers ever made of steel?

thirdgenbird

croce de anue is/was a very nice group, it was just too close to chorus. think ultegra and ultegra sl

miamijim

fxt

cudak888 

Yep:
https://velobase.com/ViewSingleCompon...19fb5&Enum=108
https://velobase.com/ViewSingleCompon...e1db2&Enum=108



-Kurt

cudak888 

That's right. Shimano 105 should be put on A1A to be run over.

-Kurt

P.S.: As if I mean it. I just recommended a 105 group to a local friend, as a good budget group to build his Raleigh Team Pro up with.

Picchio Special

Speaking of Chorus - I definitely think the original Chorus gruppo deserves a shout out, even though late to the C+V party. Not on a par with 7400, maybe, but I have a panto Chorus group on my late 80's Bianchi and dig it. Aesthetically and functionally nice - arguably works better than C-Record, and the monoplaner brakes are cool (and were used by a number of pros).

Grand Bois

Nope.

Chromed bronze.

thirdgenbird

you dont have to tell me

i ditched a perfect set of chorus dual pivots for a set of NOS late veloce monoplanars. in my opinion they are the best looking brakes made. they are very close to the chorus units but came with the better cartridge brake pads.

embankmentlb

Late 80's: Athena, Chorus, Croce-D-A, Record

repechage

Maybe that is why they don't release the electronic stuff, they cannot figure out a name for it.

Servo Record?

thirdgenbird

i love it!

my bet is e-record

dashuaigeh

haha that's fantastic .

JohnDThompson 

Shimano's "Crane" designation originally only referred to the rear derailleur, and "Dura-Ace" only to the centerpull brakes. When Shimano decided to offer a full group, the Crane derailleur was rebadged as "Dura-Ace," the brakes were changed to side-pulls, and Dura-Ace labeled cranks, headsets and hubs were added. The centerpull brake was renamed "Tourney" and became the name of the second-tier group set.

embankmentlb

Old Campy just can't be beaten in terms of beauty!!! It has that timeless quality, I love it!

noglider 

I think there were other Shimano name changes. Didn't 600 become Ultegra?

cudak888 

Touché

-Kurt

dashuaigeh

Forgot about that one. At least it stayed the same in the lineup, though, whereas campy seemed to add stuff in, take stuff out, etc.

thirdgenbird

didnt it go 600>ultegra 600>ultegra