jon c. 

Is there any follow up that would indicate this would come before a judge? Seems unlikely. If any action is taken a ticket would likely be the only sanction and would only end up before a judge if the cited driver wants to contest it.

Arthur Peabody

NPR talked to the widower about his advocacy for bike safety on All things considered Friday https://www.npr.org/2022/11/18/11378...k-took-her-lif

Schweinhund

No, we all don't want to see that. We want to see justice. Did she enter the strike zone before or after he started his turn?
I have not seen video so I'll not jump to conclusions, but there are scenarios here unless you've seen something I have not, that would make her at fault.

rekmeyata

He needs to be banned just because he's laughing at coal rollers? I suppose you are the perfect human being and never ever joked or laughed about something that was bit off. Imagine how many less workers, motorists, cyclists, pilots, etc we would have if we banned everybody for laughing at something a bit off color.

rekmeyata

Correct, that is why I don't use bike lanes but rarely; I much rather take the lane if I can keep up with traffic. And if I am in a bike lane I NEVER pass or come along side a car or truck on my left, because regardless of blind spots or not, they can always turn in front of you, and of course with big trucks they make very wide turns, the rear trailer wheels more times than not uses the any turn lane, bike lane, and or sidewalk to complete that turn.

A doctor in Boston died because she made the mistake of not holding back when the trucker clearly turned on his signal far ahead of the rider, in this case though she was not in the bike lane, the bike lane had shifted to a middle section of the city street, she did not use that lane, she stayed next to the right curb. I can't second guess what the trucker was thinking, but had I been driving that truck and lost sight of her I would not had made the turn and waited till I saw her; the trucker may have thought she moved over to the bike lane, or maybe she stayed behind him, I don't know, but she was killed, that I do know because she got ran over by the trailers rear wheels. The other thing the driver of that truck could have done was gone into the right turn/bus lane to prevent her from going into that lane, then swung the nose out two lanes then do what's called a button hook turn, the only problem with that is if she had moved to the left bike lane would that had caused any interference with the rider?

Unfortunately most cycling accident deaths are caused by cyclists unaware of the dangers of a busy city street, even though roughly 56% of all motorists vs cyclists accidents are the fault of the motorists, still a lot of those accidents could have been avoided had the cyclist understood some dangers that are going on around them. Cyclists need to yield to motorists regardless if the cyclist doesn't have to, quite simply a cyclist will lose to a vehicle; is it better to be slowed down and yield and stay alive, or is it better not to yield and exert your legal rights and die?

rekmeyata

According to police investigation, she was riding her bike in a bike lane, the flatbed trucker for some reason did not see her, either he passed her, or she was attempting to pass him, as the doctor was attempting to do, and somehow he did not see her. She was probably in the legal sense of the law correct for doing what she did, but just like that doctor accident, she was too inexperienced for city traffic to deal with what was happening to prevent that sort of thing from happening. So from what I've read, and that's all I can go by, it will probably be the truckers fault, this is far less complicated than the doctor accident where I think the trucker was only 25% at fault, in this case it appears he will be 100% at fault.

This was a tragic accident, trucks and buses have large blind spots, especially down close to the ground like a bike is. Motorists and cyclists need to watch out for each other. I seriously doubt the trucker had killing on his mind, therefore this is an accident which doubtfully he'll will see any jail time, they don't send people to jail for honest accidents. It's going to be really bad on the trucker's mind and emotional state for the rest of his life, some of you will think, so what? that's nothing for what he did; fine, but imagine how full our jails would be for true accidental deaths, in fact there could be someone lurking on this forum that may have killed or seriously injured someone in an at fault accident, I think they would tell you what kind of emotional battle is ahead for that trucker, and they will tell you jail time is not the answer. Now if it's found later in the court hearing that the trucker had been doing narcotics or drinking, ok, put him jail for life, I have no problem with that.

livedarklions

​​​​​Yes, that's exactly right, thank you.

Seriously, he posted that in a thread about a bunch of cyclists getting run over while a jerk was trying to coal roll them, and he was saying how people who ride on roads really can't complain when they're assaulted in this manner. Sorry, but I don't think there's room for that kind of crap in a forum dedicated to bicycling safety and advocacy.

rekmeyata

So did those cyclists all get run over while the driver was coal rolling? If that's true, then it's premeditated murder, or premeditated attempted murder (is that a charge?) and he should get the death sentence for the first one and life in prison for the second..

livedarklions

Look up the thread.

mdarnton

I'm confused here. Are you suggesting that it's OK for a truck to run over someone if he thinks he's far enough ahead that she has time to make a panic stop? Like, his illegal (insufficient time to turn without disrupting traffic) right turn is OK and it's her fault?

rekmeyata

I was initially responding about the diplomat woman that was run over; now there is the 16 year old kid that ran over a bunch of cyclists, in that last example that kid needs to be sentenced as an adult, and since it was a willful act, he needs to get the max sentence times however many cyclist he ran over. Not sure what the max sentence it per count, but say it's 10 years, and there say 6 riders, that's 60 years he should spend in prison; with no reduction in time per count or total time, in a lot of these cases the max term could be say 10 years, but only sentence down the minimal time, say 2 years, but that's not right for what that teenager did. That teen has something majorly wrong in his brain, letting him out early could simply set up another similar situation.

Schweinhund

A bicycle is a vehicle. I'm saying if he had his blinker on, and she entered the strike zone AFTER the turn was initiated and there was ample time for her to stop and SHE didn't, bicycles don't get blanket immunity.
Obey the rules of the road. If, in a car, a person pulled to the right of a truck turning right and got hit, it's not the trucks fault.
I AM NOT SAYING that's what happened, but if it is, the bicyclist is at fault.

GamblerGORD53

You are referring to Dr Anita Kurmann in Boston. RIP. Her ultimate mistake was stopping instead of doing a hard right and get going. Slim tho her chance was at that point, with the truck going too fast as well as trailer wheels went over the curb. They changed the lanes right after that.
The idiot coal kid stomped on the gas and went sideways.

I've seen a limo get doored on a wide turn. The same when a car went in a truck's swing zone. I was driving behind the truck.
=======
Edit ... The video is actually still on Youtube. >> 16 Seconds: The Killing of Anita Kurmann.<<

mdarnton

Chicago law gives bikes the right of way in this situation because a bike lane is a traffic lane and the truck loses right of way by cutting across an active lane to turn. Apparently many other jurisdictions are the same:
https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/q...-into-driveway

Schweinhund

Oy.

greatscott

I watched that video a bunch of times, I'm not sadistic, but when I first saw the video this message thing kept popping up from some cycling activist thing showing all the blame on the driver including breaking laws. Problem was, according to the police, the driver did not break any laws, and that the Dr did not use the proper lane for cyclist going straight, and the laws in Boston were different than the laws in other cities. Anyway, from what I remember of the video is that the Dr was riding in the R lane next to the curb, going at a decent clip, the trucker passes her about 2 blocks before he has to make his turn, as he approaches the turn, about a 1/3 of a block from his turn, he turns on his R blinker, at that split moment he does that, it looked like the Dr was about a 1/2 block behind the truck, but she's moving at a good clip, somewhere near this area another cyclist was riding, he goes over to the bike lane, she obviously does not, as the driver slows down to begin preparing to make his turn, she catches up with him, still on the far R next to the curb, but now in a designated city bus stopping lane, he now begins to turn just as she is coming up alongside of the truck, the trucker then cuts the curve and jumps the sidewalk with the rear tandems, she has no place to go, she tried stopping but got ran over, she could not have turned R either without getting ran over, there was no time for her to jump the curb either. The trucker claims he didn't know he hit her, and that could be true because when he did hit her he was also jumping that curb, so he probably assumed that the slight jolt he felt was the curb, and part of that jolt was the curb.

From that video, and from what the police said concerning the laws in that city, she was in the wrong. The trucker should have been a bit more alert like I mentioned before, he knew he passed her, so he should not have made that turn until he saw her again and knew where she was at. Obviously this case went to the courts which is why the video is gone, the only wrong doing that the trucker did was not gone up to another level of precaution, but he didn't do anything illegal, so a jury could rule him to be 25% at fault? Evidently this case is still in the courts, because I could find any outcome on what happened, meaning an outcome has not happened so until it does everything is hush hush.

Of course the bike activists people are saying the state of Mass has only filed charges against 5 motorists involved with hitting cyclists out of 33 cyclists fatality accidents, all I know in this case was that they had several cameras that caught her riding for a long ways, plus the street camera at the intersection, so they have really good video documentation as to what happened, neither Boston, nor the state, can do anything to to prevent charges from being filed, if there are any charges deemed necessary to be brought against the trucker. The activists also scream about how the police got it wrong, no they did not get it wrong, they reviewed the videos and saw everything that happened, and the ground team did the investigation, along with eyewitness accounts, and found her to be at fault. Then the activists say she was riding in her lane carefully navigating traffic, no, the bike lane moved over to her left, there were arrows on the road telling cyclists to move over, and the bike lane was clearly marked as a bike lane, she was not in any sort of bike lane, she was first on the regular part of the street meant for cars because the bike lane shifted, then she move further into another R lane that reserved for city buses to pickup and drop off passengers; nor was she carefully navigating traffic, she was riding at a good clip, there was nothing in front of her to navigate, all that is said for drama affect.

I'm not an anti cyclist, or I hate cyclists and wish they all die, I don't roll coal at cyclists either; I've been riding bikes since I was 8 years old, and continued till this very day and I'm 68 years old; I've had friends die in bicycle accidents, so I've been there, the 3 friends that I had that died were ALL at fault! Not because the city cops didn't do their homework on the cases, but rather my friends did not obey the laws that are on the street for not only cars to follow but bicycles too. I use to ride on streets in Los Angeles, and a few other large cities, I learned what to do and what not to do, and thankfully I survived while learning, but you never ever come along the right side of a big truck, a bus, or even a car, you stay behind at a distance where you can stop if you have to, the Dr was simply too inexperienced to read the traffic and understand how big vehicles operate, and she failed to realize that the bike lane had shifted to the left, even though another cyclist did it that was very close to her, and died before she could learn those life saving lessons. A very very tragic and sad thing, but hopefully cyclists can learn from her mistakes.

Again, I have not been privy to seeing all the facts, only going by the videos that use to be on the internet, as well as the police report that use to be on the internet, and when I checked the laws she broke, those were indeed laws she broke that were particular to Boston, some activists were trying to say that the state laws supercede local laws, no they do not, the city makes laws to keep people safe in their particular city with their particular street/traffic patterns. So I could be wrong in my assessment of the accident if other evidence came up later, but everything that use to be posted about the accident at the time of the accident pointed the fault at the Dr.

Camilo

I was lucky that I learned not to pass cars on the right at an intersection. I ran into the side of a car making a legal right turn and it was totally my fault. Luckily I wasn't going too fast so I was able to slow down and veer somewhat to the right to cause a slow, glancing collision. No significant damage to me, the car or my bike. The driver was upset, not because I was a bone-head, but because she thought she might have hurt me. I immediately realized i was at fault and apologized profusely and was quite shaken by what I understood could have been a very bad collision. Pure luck on my part that it wasn't a larger vehicle and that I didn't end up under the rear wheels of a bus or semi. I have great sympathy for people who make that mistake and get injured or killed. I have great sympathy for drivers of large vehicles trying to keep track of inexperienced and/or careless cyclists and are involved in a tragedy like this.

I have no sympathy for "coal rollers" and distracted drivers who injure or kill cyclists. Give them their day in court, yes, find out all the facts (not just internet discussion "facts"), but get them to that day in court, and if found guilty, give them appropriate punishment.

tungsten

Tough, we didn't used to have seatbelts either.
If the taxpayers can afford to put cameras on cops chests so we can (hopefully) hold them accountable when they murder us than we can afford simple cameras and monitors for the trucking industry.
Easy to find the $ by skimming the pay of their stinkin' CEO's.
And if it was your wife? What's a life worth? Saving a few pennies on your on-line bike parts?

Schweinhund

Just stop. 99.999 percent of truck drivers are good honest people and never have an accident.

livedarklions

Not sure what I posted that you've interpreted as an invitation to post what you'd do if you were the judge. Frankly, I don't know why you'd expect anyone would care what you would do. I just gave you the context of why I found JB's posting about laughing at videos of serial coal rolling so offensive.

Steve B.

Unless she had a stop sign, there is no requirement for a cyclist to yield to a turning vehicle. Its all on the driver of the truck to be aware of cyclists in the designated cycling lane and to only turn when it is clear. The truck driver did not do that clearly.

livedarklions

Oh good, another round of "second guess the corpse" in A&S.

rekmeyata

Why are screaming at me? a whole bunch of posters are declaring themselves as judges, is anyone screaming at them? no; are you screaming at them too? No your not, so I can only take that to mean you have something against me, that's fine, I can live with you being a child, so I'll just treat you like one from now on and ignore you.

livedarklions

Why would I possibly be annoyed with you being judgmental? Garsh, go figure....

BTW, if you really want to know how I feel about the judge cosplay that goes on in these threads, see post 72.

Schweinhund

Are you SURE about that. In my state, California, it is. I would bet it is in your state as well.