Modern Cycling is Becoming Much More Hazardous!!!
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03-06-23, 03:34 PM
#52
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03-06-23, 05:44 PM
#53
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I'm not so sure that cycling in Toronto has become more dangerous. At worse the driving is the same. Ever since our joke-Mayor left, we have been installing more cycling infrastructure that keep cyclists separated from drivers. And in the odd occasion where driver and cyclist interact at these places, I've seen drivers give way.
And then there's technology. When cycling on roads and streets without bike lanes, rear-facing cameras keep most drivers at bay.
I've never had a face-to-face confrontation with a bad driver. The worse, just as before, is a bit of honking and attempted bullying but nobody has tried any intentional harm.
And then there's technology. When cycling on roads and streets without bike lanes, rear-facing cameras keep most drivers at bay.
I've never had a face-to-face confrontation with a bad driver. The worse, just as before, is a bit of honking and attempted bullying but nobody has tried any intentional harm.
03-06-23, 06:52 PM
#54
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I was thinking about responding with data, and an observation about the absence thereof in the Op’s assertion.
However, reading the whole thread, all I can say is get off my lawn.
However, reading the whole thread, all I can say is get off my lawn.
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You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
03-06-23, 07:49 PM
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What I see is that cycling deaths remain about constant, drivers are vastly more courteous than they were a few decades back, bike lanes are much more common ....
Yeah, safer.
A few weeks ago I was coming back from somewhere far away---an out-of-town job---driving down a divided highway at night. For the first time ever i saw headlight s coming my way ... on my side of the highway. I was tid enough I didn't even get upset, I just pulled to one side and kept driving. I thought about calling 911 but figured either someone else would or had, or the driver would figure it out, or something terrible would happen, before the fifteen-minute response time ...
Is this proof that driving is less safe, or that I am selfish?
To me driving is very safe, since I wrecked some cars playing boy racer and realized it was not a fun sport. Cars are certainly safer, and deaths per million miles has been falling steadily for decades. And guess what? Those distracted drivers in cars? They drive Cars. So .... shouldn't accidents be up? Yet I don't seem to have any , on my bike or in my car.
I must be doing it wrong.
This is Not A&S. If you want to dragoon people into agreeing with you, go over there. I still do a lot of rides around rush hour, and I don't have a lot of issues. Sorry for those who do. Sorry if I am not allowed to disagree with you .... but here i am.
Yeah, safer.
A few weeks ago I was coming back from somewhere far away---an out-of-town job---driving down a divided highway at night. For the first time ever i saw headlight s coming my way ... on my side of the highway. I was tid enough I didn't even get upset, I just pulled to one side and kept driving. I thought about calling 911 but figured either someone else would or had, or the driver would figure it out, or something terrible would happen, before the fifteen-minute response time ...
Is this proof that driving is less safe, or that I am selfish?
To me driving is very safe, since I wrecked some cars playing boy racer and realized it was not a fun sport. Cars are certainly safer, and deaths per million miles has been falling steadily for decades. And guess what? Those distracted drivers in cars? They drive Cars. So .... shouldn't accidents be up? Yet I don't seem to have any , on my bike or in my car.
I must be doing it wrong.
This is Not A&S. If you want to dragoon people into agreeing with you, go over there. I still do a lot of rides around rush hour, and I don't have a lot of issues. Sorry for those who do. Sorry if I am not allowed to disagree with you .... but here i am.
03-06-23, 10:42 PM
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I think the burden of proof is on the person making the three exclamation point positive claim at the top of the thread. Given population increases, there's nothing in the data to suggest a significant increase in danger as a long-term trend, there has been a significant uptick in fatalities during the pandemic, but that may very well be the result of more people riding.
03-06-23, 10:48 PM
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mind boggling
Yup, 4000 pounds car or truck , to move 1 person and a couple bags of grocery. Now think about a jumbo jet fuels up on 23,000 gallons of fuel and goes up in the air!!??
03-07-23, 06:02 AM
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We got on the overuse of cars because OP isn't buying the idea that e-vehicles are making things safer by getting some people out of cars. You want to compare CO2 emissions per mile between car drivers and airline passengers? Different thread and forum entirely.
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03-07-23, 10:27 AM
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03-07-23, 10:51 AM
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how about we make it like most anything else which poses an increased risk to those around you - make it illegal, add some good warnings and signage and training/education to make sure everyone knows, come up with some new technologies to mitigate the desire, and then actually enforce the law with stiff penalties.
drunk driving deaths, for example, have decreased by 40+ percent in the last few decades.
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03-07-23, 11:21 AM
#62
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>> Gasping for breath in agonizing pain??
That was me, climbing a 23 % grade on a Moser with 42 x 26 gears, toe clips & straps, and tennis shoes.
Didn't die but sure felt like it. And that was 30 years ago.
FWIW, cycling deaths in Michigan are up 80% over the last decade.
cheers -mathias
That was me, climbing a 23 % grade on a Moser with 42 x 26 gears, toe clips & straps, and tennis shoes.
Didn't die but sure felt like it. And that was 30 years ago.
FWIW, cycling deaths in Michigan are up 80% over the last decade.
cheers -mathias
03-07-23, 11:23 AM
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Could try making every vehicle come standard with a standard transmission & give an option to opt for an automatic at a hefty price. Insurance companies could also influence the market by giving a noticeable discount incentive to have a standard transmission. Additionally, the state DMV could reflect a lower registration rate for vehicles equipped with a factory standard transmission.
It might increase "delayed" movement from a stopping event, but that is where another's vehicle horn could play a role.
It might increase "delayed" movement from a stopping event, but that is where another's vehicle horn could play a role.
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03-07-23, 06:42 PM
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I think the burden of proof is on the person making the three exclamation point positive claim at the top of the thread. Given population increases, there's nothing in the data to suggest a significant increase in danger as a long-term trend, there has been a significant uptick in fatalities during the pandemic, but that may very well be the result of more people riding.
03-08-23, 06:05 AM
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I am a boating safety professional by trade. We saw a 20+% rise in fatalities nationally in 2020, it dropped off slightly in 2021. Our data doesn't provide us with exposure hours, but our observations all across the country were that boat ramps had near holiday weekend level of traffic every weekend. Preliminary 2022 numbers look like no change from 2021. Not only are more people enjoying outdoor activities, boaters specifically are engaging in boating to get away from it all and burn off stress. They are dropping their guard in the process. That and there are a lot of new entrants into the various activities. That often translates into more mistakes and the lack of experience to employ defensive tactics that we all develop over time.
Without reliable exposure data, it's impossible to know whether the increase in riders getting hit is just reflecting directly the increase in people riding. If that's the case, from an individual perspective, there's been no increase in my risks riding.
I do think one should be very careful comparing bike safety stats to boating stats. Obviously, I'm no expert, but bike stats are related to automobile stats. I don't think there's any equivalent relationship with boat statistics and those of any other activity. Feel free to correct me on that, but I think boating and cycling are more different than they are alike.
03-08-23, 06:34 AM
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Probably is easier to drive a boat while drunk than ride a bike. Hey, where's OP? Maybe he can't find his thread since it was (appropriately) moved.
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03-08-23, 09:10 AM
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I am a boating safety professional by trade. We saw a 20+% rise in fatalities nationally in 2020, it dropped off slightly in 2021. Our data doesn't provide us with exposure hours, but our observations all across the country were that boat ramps had near holiday weekend level of traffic every weekend. Preliminary 2022 numbers look like no change from 2021. Not only are more people enjoying outdoor activities, boaters specifically are engaging in boating to get away from it all and burn off stress. They are dropping their guard in the process. That and there are a lot of new entrants into the various activities. That often translates into more mistakes and the lack of experience to employ defensive tactics that we all develop over time.
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03-08-23, 10:00 AM
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Do we really have reliable data on cycling hazards?
When I went to the ER and then to the trauma center, nobody from the government records that data.
Depending on the country, cycling has been estimated to be 20-80 times more deadly per mile than riding in a motor vehicle although I doubt the fatality rate per 100mm miles has changed much.
When I went to the ER and then to the trauma center, nobody from the government records that data.
Depending on the country, cycling has been estimated to be 20-80 times more deadly per mile than riding in a motor vehicle although I doubt the fatality rate per 100mm miles has changed much.
03-08-23, 11:17 AM
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Such "estimates" are probably highly dependent on the agenda or predetermined/preferred "solution" being promoted by the person/organization providing the estimate.
03-08-23, 12:26 PM
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Do we really have reliable data on cycling hazards?
When I went to the ER and then to the trauma center, nobody from the government records that data.
Depending on the country, cycling has been estimated to be 20-80 times more deadly per mile than riding in a motor vehicle although I doubt the fatality rate per 100mm miles has changed much.
When I went to the ER and then to the trauma center, nobody from the government records that data.
Depending on the country, cycling has been estimated to be 20-80 times more deadly per mile than riding in a motor vehicle although I doubt the fatality rate per 100mm miles has changed much.
03-08-23, 01:05 PM
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Also in some, if not most of these estimates of bicycle injuries we have no idea if all injuries or number of ER visits as a result of bicycling mishaps, from skinned knee to traumatic amputations and even no injuries (checked out at ER, "just in case") are added together to arrive at "shocking" totals without any consideration of the severity of injuries incurred.
03-08-23, 01:13 PM
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Do we really have reliable data on cycling hazards?
When I went to the ER and then to the trauma center, nobody from the government records that data.
Depending on the country, cycling has been estimated to be 20-80 times more deadly per mile than riding in a motor vehicle although I doubt the fatality rate per 100mm miles has changed much.
When I went to the ER and then to the trauma center, nobody from the government records that data.
Depending on the country, cycling has been estimated to be 20-80 times more deadly per mile than riding in a motor vehicle although I doubt the fatality rate per 100mm miles has changed much.
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03-08-23, 02:13 PM
#73
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For example, a stretch of road with no cars is much safer to cycle on than one with the maximum number of cars that will still allow them to exceed the speed limit. And then if the volume of cars increase so much that they turn into congested traffic, it would be slightly more dangerous than it with no cars on it and much less dangerous with cars going at full speed. That's because the cyclist is in control to navigate past all the cars as if they were just obstacles.
However, a road with any number of cars on it is always a danger to itself and each other. A single car can get into self collisions. Congested traffic can get drivers into fender benders. And of course cars going full speed often smash into each other.
All that variation on the same stretch of road.
Last edited by Daniel4; 03-08-23 at 02:21 PM.
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03-08-23, 03:29 PM
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Also in some, if not most of these estimates of bicycle injuries we have no idea if all injuries or number of ER visits as a result of bicycling mishaps, from skinned knee to traumatic amputations and even no injuries (checked out at ER, "just in case") are added together to arrive at "shocking" totals without any consideration of the severity of injuries incurred.
And then, of course, there are the fools such as I, who refused to let my long-suffering spouse take me to the ER with a definite concussion after my last kinetic encounter with an automobile.
03-08-23, 04:58 PM
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With well over 100k miles on the roads, including city, suburban and rural riding, I'm well aware that somewhere out there, is a car bumper with my name on it. However the odds of that car and I being in the same place at the same time remain acceptably low.
Cyclists are constantly made aware of the deaths and injuries, but we tend to discount the non-news of the vast number of people riding bikes and NOT being injured.
So, I advise riding smart and maintaining a high level of situational awareness, but most of all accepting that while your number may come up anytime, the bad odds in the lottery of life are comparable to those of winning the state lottery.
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Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
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