10 speed Campy friction shifting ?
10-17-20, 08:53 PM
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10 speed Campy friction shifting ?
Just for kicks I want to put on some down tube friction shifters on my Trek which is currently set up with Campy 10 speed with ergo shifters. Thought I would try to friction shift for fun. I think my cassette is 10 speed Ultradrive. Will it friction shift OK ?
10-17-20, 09:36 PM
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My old Orbea ran a ten speed Campagnolo cassette for awhile and shifted really well with it's original Simplex shifters. Key should be the right DT shifters with the range to pull enough cable to cover the cassette.
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10-17-20, 10:31 PM
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Looks like I will do OK then thanks guys ! As jamesdak said I need to get campy downtube shifters that will cover the range. Will have to look into that...........
10-18-20, 12:48 AM
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The
ENE
shifters as used by the Masi and Bianchi and I think Raleigh brand will accomplish
the spool diameter is big enough.
ENE
shifters as used by the Masi and Bianchi and I think Raleigh brand will accomplish
the spool diameter is big enough.
10-18-20, 05:16 AM
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I would think you could increase the shift pull ratio by putting heat shrink wrap on the cable where it wraps around the shifter barrel.
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10-18-20, 09:25 AM
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I had Campy downtube shifters on a 1998 De Bernardi with a Record 10 speed group. The friction shifting worked fine but it needed every millimeter of cable pull to get it done. You needed full stop to stop travel in order to cover the range which left no margin for error. The Ene Ciclo down-tube shifters on my Bianchi Eroica do have a larger spool diameter and can shift the 10 gear Veloce unit with a little potential travel left.
When I would ride that bike at events, younger riders would call them suicide shifters! What do they know, whippersnappers!
When I would ride that bike at events, younger riders would call them suicide shifters! What do they know, whippersnappers!
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10-18-20, 10:16 AM
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If you already have 10-speed Ergo, simply swap in some brake levers and a set of Record TT/bar end shifters.
1. Remove the shifters from the TT bodies.
2. Remove the rubber shifter covers.
3. Scrape the glue residue off the levers, wipe them down.
4. Find and acquire some backing plates from some some older Campy DT shifter.
5. Mount the plates so the stop tab limits the shifter when it’s forward movement is even with the DT.
6. Simply connect them to your 10-speed Campy stuff.
7. Be sure to set the limit screws on your RD, as the R shifter will shift another click, and another, all around the braze-on.
Looks like old school, shifts the newer stuff. I haven’t checked it with any 11-speed bar ends..Not sure about that.
1. Remove the shifters from the TT bodies.
2. Remove the rubber shifter covers.
3. Scrape the glue residue off the levers, wipe them down.
4. Find and acquire some backing plates from some some older Campy DT shifter.
5. Mount the plates so the stop tab limits the shifter when it’s forward movement is even with the DT.
6. Simply connect them to your 10-speed Campy stuff.
7. Be sure to set the limit screws on your RD, as the R shifter will shift another click, and another, all around the braze-on.
Looks like old school, shifts the newer stuff. I haven’t checked it with any 11-speed bar ends..Not sure about that.
10-19-20, 05:51 AM
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As others mentioned, check cable pull. Combination of what cable the shifter can pull, the derailleur ratio (https://www.cyclinguk.org/cyclists-l...gears/shimergo), and the cassette width (https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.html). 9 and 10 speed Campagnolo appear to be similar total width for example (a little less perhaps if you are just talking largest cog centerline).
I need to dig in a notebook, but I somewhat recently estimated an old C-Record era Athena RD shift ratio just in case it would be similar to the 8s. I did not find it to be so, seemed higher, and wasn't coming up consistent across the range. Going to try the Athena with some Campagnolo retrofrictions on Campagnolo 9s whenever I figure out what to do with some botched home sprayed paint. I was going to start with Shimano 8s (those wheels are already built) and the width is a bit less, thinking I could eyeball how much movement I have left.
Not ideal at all, but I also was thinking if I hit a bind and want more gears, a JTEK Shiftmate could be added to move the RD more for a given shifter movement. Gotta make sure the shifter "resolution" is nice and high for precise movements if you're going to amplify movement... but always an option. I ran some numbers on the Shiftmate line versus what they said it adjusts to get the cable ratio from their pulleys, consider them fairly approximate, if anyone is ever going outside their charts for something:
Shiftmate 1 1.05
Shiftmate 2 1.10
Shiftmate 3 1.19
Shiftmate 4 1.26
Shiftmate 5 1.36
Shiftmate 6 1.55
I need to dig in a notebook, but I somewhat recently estimated an old C-Record era Athena RD shift ratio just in case it would be similar to the 8s. I did not find it to be so, seemed higher, and wasn't coming up consistent across the range. Going to try the Athena with some Campagnolo retrofrictions on Campagnolo 9s whenever I figure out what to do with some botched home sprayed paint. I was going to start with Shimano 8s (those wheels are already built) and the width is a bit less, thinking I could eyeball how much movement I have left.
Not ideal at all, but I also was thinking if I hit a bind and want more gears, a JTEK Shiftmate could be added to move the RD more for a given shifter movement. Gotta make sure the shifter "resolution" is nice and high for precise movements if you're going to amplify movement... but always an option. I ran some numbers on the Shiftmate line versus what they said it adjusts to get the cable ratio from their pulleys, consider them fairly approximate, if anyone is ever going outside their charts for something:
Shiftmate 1 1.05
Shiftmate 2 1.10
Shiftmate 3 1.19
Shiftmate 4 1.26
Shiftmate 5 1.36
Shiftmate 6 1.55
10-19-20, 08:22 AM
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As far as shifting quality, the combination of a modern rear mech with a slanted parallelogram, a cassette with teeth that are well-designed for indexing, a 10+ speed chain, and a cable that is not slack, will shift like magic compared to the vintage systems we might remember and sometimes love. Shift quality will still be affected by whether the mech's cage length is well-matched to the gearing range. Adjustment is still critical for the inner and outer limits. I suspect B-screw is also critical, but perhaps not as much as with an indexing shifter.
The other side of the cable pull question is whether it becomes hard to shift only one step in the back. You'll have to be aware this can happen and perhaps shift slowly until you become acclimated to any inconsistencies.
10-19-20, 09:21 AM
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If you already have 10-speed Ergo, simply swap in some brake levers and a set of Record TT/bar end shifters.
1. Remove the shifters from the TT bodies.
2. Remove the rubber shifter covers.
3. Scrape the glue residue off the levers, wipe them down.
4. Find and acquire some backing plates from some some older Campy DT shifter.
5. Mount the plates so the stop tab limits the shifter when it’s forward movement is even with the DT.
6. Simply connect them to your 10-speed Campy stuff.
7. Be sure to set the limit screws on your RD, as the R shifter will shift another click, and another, all around the braze-on.
Looks like old school, shifts the newer stuff. I haven’t checked it with any 11-speed bar ends..Not sure about that.
1. Remove the shifters from the TT bodies.
2. Remove the rubber shifter covers.
3. Scrape the glue residue off the levers, wipe them down.
4. Find and acquire some backing plates from some some older Campy DT shifter.
5. Mount the plates so the stop tab limits the shifter when it’s forward movement is even with the DT.
6. Simply connect them to your 10-speed Campy stuff.
7. Be sure to set the limit screws on your RD, as the R shifter will shift another click, and another, all around the braze-on.
Looks like old school, shifts the newer stuff. I haven’t checked it with any 11-speed bar ends..Not sure about that.
10-19-20, 11:06 AM
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I think the Shimano 6208 DT shifters from the 1984 Trek 610 will do the job. There's nothing magic about Campy DT friction shifters. The amount of cable to be pulled is driven by the rear derailleur, and the capability to pull that much cable is driven by the DT shift lever, specifically the diameter of the barrel area that wraps up the cable. You can make an initial assessment by trying the design with a set of shifters that you already have, measure the barrel diameter with a caliper, and adjust accordingly if you need to buy a different set of shifters. There might be a fellow tweaker on line who has already done this and perhaps blogged the results!
As far as shifting quality, the combination of a modern rear mech with a slanted parallelogram, a cassette with teeth that are well-designed for indexing, a 10+ speed chain, and a cable that is not slack, will shift like magic compared to the vintage systems we might remember and sometimes love. Shift quality will still be affected by whether the mech's cage length is well-matched to the gearing range. Adjustment is still critical for the inner and outer limits. I suspect B-screw is also critical, but perhaps not as much as with an indexing shifter.
The other side of the cable pull question is whether it becomes hard to shift only one step in the back. You'll have to be aware this can happen and perhaps shift slowly until you become acclimated to any inconsistencies.
As far as shifting quality, the combination of a modern rear mech with a slanted parallelogram, a cassette with teeth that are well-designed for indexing, a 10+ speed chain, and a cable that is not slack, will shift like magic compared to the vintage systems we might remember and sometimes love. Shift quality will still be affected by whether the mech's cage length is well-matched to the gearing range. Adjustment is still critical for the inner and outer limits. I suspect B-screw is also critical, but perhaps not as much as with an indexing shifter.
The other side of the cable pull question is whether it becomes hard to shift only one step in the back. You'll have to be aware this can happen and perhaps shift slowly until you become acclimated to any inconsistencies.
Road Fan,
Thanks for the info ! I have several down tube friction shifters I can try. The braze on pegs are there that will make it a little easier to find a pair of shifters that will do the job. I have a pair of Campy Record down tuber's from the 1980's I think. I wil try them first and see how it goes. I need some more shifter cables and I ordered some more last night. Our bike shops around here are out. They are almost out of everything ! Interesting on how well it will shift one step in the back. I will find out. The 10 speed cassette is the latest Campy Ultra Drive so hopefully it will perform OK. One of the guys I ride with said the Shimano HyperGlide cassettes are better than the Campy UltraDrive for smooth friction shifting and It's unfortunate that I am using Campy . haha
10-19-20, 02:51 PM
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Perhaps ignorance is bliss.
The backing plate only provides a tab to stop the forward motion of the shifter.
I'm not sure to what diameter you are referring.
I always thought it was the tab placement relative to the square cut-out.
If I had a 260mm freehub, it'd shift all 20...just keeps clicking...
I've also considered the bar end holders could be filed and shaped to provide the same tab at the "top" and the bottom so it would be limited to 9 shifts. I want to make sure I don't just keep shifting; hoping for yet another gear. I run out so quickly.
Last edited by RobbieTunes; 10-19-20 at 02:55 PM.
10-19-20, 04:50 PM
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Has anyone ever actually tried this set up? In 10 or 11 spds? I hadn't thought it out but my idea was to buy DA7900 downtube shifters for one of my top Columbus SLX bikes which has currently DA7400, in order to go 10 speeds. Dunno why but I somehow assumed friction shifting with the original shifters wouldn't work well with a 10 spd cassette. Also, could their potentially be an issue with a narrower chain and the older cranksets?
10-19-20, 05:29 PM
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10-19-20, 05:55 PM
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One issue is it will only take a very small shift of the lever to go up or down gears, but from what I've heard you get used to it. The other issue is depending on your levers, they might need to be rotated 180 degrees or more to get to low gear. Even my Campy 7 speed shifters went 180 degrees to get to the low gear on my 8 speed cassette. It's not the end of the world, but it's a bit awkward.
The space between the inside faces of the plates has remained consistent, so the chain will happily engage with the teeth of the chainring. Where you may get issues is the chain falling into the gap between the chainrings when shifting. @tNuvolari had some trouble with this I think.
The space between the inside faces of the plates has remained consistent, so the chain will happily engage with the teeth of the chainring. Where you may get issues is the chain falling into the gap between the chainrings when shifting. @tNuvolari had some trouble with this I think.
10-19-20, 06:17 PM
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Would the situation be any different with the 7900 indexed shifters (e.g. https://www.bike24.com/p29025.html) ? Genuine question here. I'm guessing for instance that the increment issue would still be there with 10 sp indexed shifters.
10-19-20, 08:50 PM
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I've got to be honest, When I was running the 10 speed cassette with the Simplex DT shifters I thought it was my best shifting friction setup. Very precise and I never seemed to have an issue just shifting one gear when I wanted to. Until I got the Orbea this was on I didn't think it could get better than the Superbe Pro setup on my Opus III. I think modern cables and modern cassettes really do help.
I just got done sorting out a Colnago Super which I got with 6 speed friction shifting. Bike rode great but the shifting totally sucked. Balky, stiff, and you had to overshift and then adjust back with each gear change and I just couldn't find a "feel" for the shifting. Pulled everything off, serviced it all, put new cable housing on the RD, new pulleys with no play, new cables, rebuilt the shifters and then added in a newer wheel with a modern SRAM 8 speed cassette and chain. It now works like a dream, light precise and I can feel what's going on with my fingertips. Love it.
Take you time and optimize everything you can and I bet you'll love the setup.
I just got done sorting out a Colnago Super which I got with 6 speed friction shifting. Bike rode great but the shifting totally sucked. Balky, stiff, and you had to overshift and then adjust back with each gear change and I just couldn't find a "feel" for the shifting. Pulled everything off, serviced it all, put new cable housing on the RD, new pulleys with no play, new cables, rebuilt the shifters and then added in a newer wheel with a modern SRAM 8 speed cassette and chain. It now works like a dream, light precise and I can feel what's going on with my fingertips. Love it.
Take you time and optimize everything you can and I bet you'll love the setup.
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10-19-20, 09:20 PM
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My friction 10sp setup uses a Campy cassette and shifts great IMO. I'm using big barrel Doppler levers.
10-20-20, 06:04 AM
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Road Fan,
Thanks for the info ! I have several down tube friction shifters I can try. The braze on pegs are there that will make it a little easier to find a pair of shifters that will do the job. I have a pair of Campy Record down tuber's from the 1980's I think. I wil try them first and see how it goes. I need some more shifter cables and I ordered some more last night. Our bike shops around here are out. They are almost out of everything ! Interesting on how well it will shift one step in the back. I will find out. The 10 speed cassette is the latest Campy Ultra Drive so hopefully it will perform OK. One of the guys I ride with said the Shimano HyperGlide cassettes are better than the Campy UltraDrive for smooth friction shifting and It's unfortunate that I am using Campy . haha
Thanks for the info ! I have several down tube friction shifters I can try. The braze on pegs are there that will make it a little easier to find a pair of shifters that will do the job. I have a pair of Campy Record down tuber's from the 1980's I think. I wil try them first and see how it goes. I need some more shifter cables and I ordered some more last night. Our bike shops around here are out. They are almost out of everything ! Interesting on how well it will shift one step in the back. I will find out. The 10 speed cassette is the latest Campy Ultra Drive so hopefully it will perform OK. One of the guys I ride with said the Shimano HyperGlide cassettes are better than the Campy UltraDrive for smooth friction shifting and It's unfortunate that I am using Campy . haha
As far as shifting one step in back, it's partly a matter of how finely you can set up the friction and smoothness of the leather and cable themselves, the smoothness of the derailleur moving sideways, and having too little mechanical advantage.
Also, I don't think the smoothness of the Shimano cassettes and the Campy ones is significantly different. And how would you do an A/B test with them? More important to use cassettes that fit on your wheels.
Last edited by Road Fan; 10-20-20 at 06:16 AM.
10-20-20, 06:25 AM
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I've got to be honest, When I was running the 10 speed cassette with the Simplex DT shifters I thought it was my best shifting friction setup. Very precise and I never seemed to have an issue just shifting one gear when I wanted to. Until I got the Orbea this was on I didn't think it could get better than the Superbe Pro setup on my Opus III. I think modern cables and modern cassettes really do help.
I just got done sorting out a Colnago Super which I got with 6 speed friction shifting. Bike rode great but the shifting totally sucked. Balky, stiff, and you had to overshift and then adjust back with each gear change and I just couldn't find a "feel" for the shifting. Pulled everything off, serviced it all, put new cable housing on the RD, new pulleys with no play, new cables, rebuilt the shifters and then added in a newer wheel with a modern SRAM 8 speed cassette and chain. It now works like a dream, light precise and I can feel what's going on with my fingertips. Love it.
Take you time and optimize everything you can and I bet you'll love the setup.
I just got done sorting out a Colnago Super which I got with 6 speed friction shifting. Bike rode great but the shifting totally sucked. Balky, stiff, and you had to overshift and then adjust back with each gear change and I just couldn't find a "feel" for the shifting. Pulled everything off, serviced it all, put new cable housing on the RD, new pulleys with no play, new cables, rebuilt the shifters and then added in a newer wheel with a modern SRAM 8 speed cassette and chain. It now works like a dream, light precise and I can feel what's going on with my fingertips. Love it.
Take you time and optimize everything you can and I bet you'll love the setup.
I think all this stuff is covered under your "take your time and optimize everything you can."
10-20-20, 10:01 AM
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On the Campy DT levers look out that the little lead ends from Shimano and Campy are not the same. If the ends on teh cable you have are too big, file them down to use in the smaller holes. They can get jammed, and there is no joy in destroying things to get the cables out.
As far as shifting one step in back, it's partly a matter of how finely you can set up the friction and smoothness of the leather and cable themselves, the smoothness of the derailleur moving sideways, and having too little mechanical advantage.
Also, I don't think the smoothness of the Shimano cassettes and the Campy ones is significantly different. And how would you do an A/B test with them? More important to use cassettes that fit on your wheels.
As far as shifting one step in back, it's partly a matter of how finely you can set up the friction and smoothness of the leather and cable themselves, the smoothness of the derailleur moving sideways, and having too little mechanical advantage.
Also, I don't think the smoothness of the Shimano cassettes and the Campy ones is significantly different. And how would you do an A/B test with them? More important to use cassettes that fit on your wheels.
I agree about the Campy vs Shimano thing. I would never go to a different cassette than Campy.
Thanks for the info on the cable ends, I will look out for that !
Last edited by frogman; 10-20-20 at 07:17 PM.
10-21-20, 08:09 AM
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I just found some Synchro DT shifters in my parts box.
I know better than to try and set them up indexed.
I'm tempted to go 10-sp Campy friction with them.
I've run 9-sp friction Shimano using 6-sp friction 600 shifters.
It takes a light touch, but you get used to it.
It's almost like channeling real cyclists.
I know better than to try and set them up indexed.
I'm tempted to go 10-sp Campy friction with them.
I've run 9-sp friction Shimano using 6-sp friction 600 shifters.
It takes a light touch, but you get used to it.
It's almost like channeling real cyclists.