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Old 08-24-18, 08:27 AM
  #8426  
MDcatV
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Originally Posted by topflightpro
I can consistently hit higher numbers on the trainer for efforts under 20s, but for longer efforts or FTP tests, I find my trainer numbers to be about 10-15 percent lower than on the road.

Hunter Allen did a video a few years ago explaining why your indoor numbers are lower. It has to do with cooling and inertia.

As for my shorter efforts being higher, someone explained it to me once, and it made sense at the time, but I cannot recall the details. I think it was something to do with the way you can throw your body weight into the bike on the trainer is greater than on the road because the bike doesn't deflect some of that.
interesting - i'm exact opposite. on both my old computrainer and on e-motion rollers. although my max's have come outdoors for longer efforts, the differences are within the accuracy tolerances for a powermeter, whereas anything a minute or less, my outdoor numbers are way higher
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Old 08-24-18, 09:10 AM
  #8427  
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I use a Cycleops 400 pro at the work gym and have a Stages gen 2 with left only on the bike itself.

I find indoors on the real bike with left-only Stages is my lowest reading, by far. Then it's a tie between the Cycleops indoor and the real bike outdoors.

My fluid doesn't have a flywheel at home, and you feel it. That Cycleops stationary in the gym has a good sized flywheel, and uses said flywheel for resistance also. There's a little wiper thing and an arm that applies pressure to it.

The "feel" of the Cycleops stationary is light years better than the dumb fluid. If I had $800 laying around and fancied sleeping on the couch a while, I'd buy a smart trainer. I HATE HATE HATE the feel of my fluid. It's easily about 20w lower reading on the Stages on that fluid. I routinely have to alter my power targets for workouts on that. So I do my workouts at lunch at work when I can, to use the nice rig.

I find climbing power vs. indoor on that Cycleops is very close. TT? I don't do it enough to have good adaptation to the position to lay out the same power.
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Old 08-24-18, 02:04 PM
  #8428  
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Addressing holes/gaps in your power curve

I know this is the road racing forum, but the cyclocross racing forum is pretty much dead. I don't race on the road, but do the occasional fast group ride, but spend most of my time "training" using my hilly 1 hour commute with lots of SST. Thus, I end up with a power profile that looks like this. I have Cat3/4ish 20 min power which I just tested at 3.8 w/kg but my sub 10 min power profile currently is lacking, and are more the Cat4ish range. I also know that these are probably lacking true all out efforts of those durations. So what I'd like advice on is what I should do to determine where my weaknesses are on what I should focus the next month or so on as we jump into cross season. Should I take a week and pick out a bunch of strava segments of varying lengths and try to PR power targets in this <10min range or just assume my power profile curve is similar to most in those dips and roughly fit a curve and just continue with intervals in a training plan based on prescribed percentages above FTP?
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Old 08-24-18, 02:48 PM
  #8429  
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Originally Posted by Voodoo76
Hermes, I believe you have posted this in the past, a very interesting article. The take away I had from that regarding trainers, that aligns with past experience, is that flywheel effect really matters. And might matter more for some than others. I am on a par indoors to out on my current Kickr. Not always the case on previous trainers (Try riding some of the sad fan based stuff from 30 years ago). It might be interesting to note what those who are struggling maintaining power indoors are riding?
this is why i went with the smart trainer with the heaviest flywheel. I believe the flywheel itself is about 20 pounds on the Hammer, but it is really smooth

incidentally, I trained on Minoura aluminum rollers (with mag resistance) for a long time before that, and i was able to generate outside powers for the most part. The cheapo mag trainer I bought, otoh, is the one that is the hardest to pedal. better than nothing for warming up before a race, but not good for much else
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Old 08-24-18, 02:51 PM
  #8430  
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Originally Posted by redlude97
Should I take a week and pick out a bunch of strava segments of varying lengths and try to PR power targets in this <10min range or just assume my power profile curve is similar to most in those dips and roughly fit a curve and just continue with intervals in a training plan based on prescribed percentages above FTP?
What has prevented you from getting the results you wanted in the past? Is it aerobic? Surges? Neuromuscular (tired legs)? Handling?

That's what I would figure out, and THEN I'd figure out the power that corresponds to that and work on it. I wouldn't just randomly work on intervals based on what a chart that relies on plentiful good data says.
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Old 08-24-18, 02:57 PM
  #8431  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
What has prevented you from getting the results you wanted in the past? Is it aerobic? Surges? Neuromuscular (tired legs)? Handling?

That's what I would figure out, and THEN I'd figure out the power that corresponds to that and work on it. I wouldn't just randomly work on intervals based on what a chart that relies on plentiful good data says.
Honestly in terms of power I'm not so sure. This is my first season with power so I'm not sure what my profile has looked like previously during races. HR gets pegged at or above threshold and stays there for the entire 45+mins, and power is all over the place between the surges, terrain changes, dismounts, running etc so I'm not sure where I'm weakest. Thats why I was thinking of filling out the power profile with different efforts to see where my weaknesses are.
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Old 08-24-18, 03:00 PM
  #8432  
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Originally Posted by redlude97
Honestly in terms of power I'm not so sure. This is my first season with power so I'm not sure what my profile has looked like previously during races. HR gets pegged at or above threshold and stays there for the entire 45+mins, and power is all over the place between the surges, terrain changes, dismounts, running etc so I'm not sure where I'm weakest. Thats why I was thinking of filling out the power profile with different efforts to see where my weaknesses are.
But yu don't need power to figure that out. Did you win your races? If not, why? Where did you get dropped? At the start? Middle? End? After the first attack, or multiple? Or did you simply slow down as the race progressed? Where did other people ride away from you?
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Old 08-24-18, 03:21 PM
  #8433  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
But yu don't need power to figure that out. Did you win your races? If not, why? Where did you get dropped? At the start? Middle? End? After the first attack, or multiple? Or did you simply slow down as the race progressed? Where did other people ride away from you?
Not sure how familiar you are with cyclocross, I upgraded mid season last year so I never even got a callup so started somewhere mid to rear in 60+ packs. The front third simply rode away since they cleared the first bottlenecks at the first turn as is generally the case, and the majority of people finish with the group they reach the first turn with. A select few were able to ride away from the start near my position, some were simply better at handling than me, and the rest around my start we kinda just yo-yo back and forth +/- 10 places or so passing and repassing depending on the point in the race and wether a mistake was made coming into or out of turns. It varies with the course and conditions as well, I handle dry course better than wet and muddy.
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Old 08-24-18, 04:20 PM
  #8434  
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Ah, my few cyclocross races are limited to the p/1/2 field in which I have the fitness but not the handling, and our fields are much smaller, so probably not nearly the same.

But sure, so despite the grouping/hole shot issues at the beginning, if your heart rate is pegged the entire time, it'd suggest aerobic capabilities are a big limiter at the moment. If the group placement was compromising your racing that much, then your heart rate would likely rise and fall with some decent enough difference. If it stays pegged, then regardless of the group and handling the obstacles, it suggests you're going about as hard as you can go and even with open sighting in front you probably wouldn't go much faster.

Anyway, if you do SST pretty consistently, then I'd really try doing some 100% ftp stuff, and even try some 8-10 minute intervals at 105% or so. Then, along with that, I'd try some vo2 stuff, whatever that is for you (probably have to experiment, but I usually start around 115% and work up to 130% for 3-5 minutes over the course of a few workouts).

That way you'd hit it hard all around the top-end of the aerobic system, which I'd think would significantly help in the races. At some point surges aren't really surges anymore in so much that you're riding at the limit of your aerobic capabilities over an extended period of time.

Two cents worth about as much, but that big engine can make up for a lot in really stochastic racing (crits/ cx/ etc), even though it seems at first you'd have to work on the really short, intense stuff. But that short, intense stuff comes along and stays along with little additional stimulus, while the big aerobic stuff takes more of a concerted effort to reap its rewards.
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Old 08-24-18, 04:39 PM
  #8435  
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Thanks, thats generally what I was thinking based on intervals from Hunter Allen Power Blog: The Power of Cyclo-Cross and crosssports.net. I guess what got me thinking was the WKO4 personalized intervals that I had read about but hadn't actually implemented since I haven't actually used the software, but in a more general sense determining what my actual say v02max(5 min) power was and building intervals using that number instead of a percentage of my FTP.
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Old 09-13-18, 09:01 AM
  #8436  
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Originally Posted by redlude97
Thanks, thats generally what I was thinking based on intervals from Hunter Allen Power Blog: The Power of Cyclo-Cross and crosssports.net. I guess what got me thinking was the WKO4 personalized intervals that I had read about but hadn't actually implemented since I haven't actually used the software, but in a more general sense determining what my actual say v02max(5 min) power was and building intervals using that number instead of a percentage of my FTP.
I am not a Cx guy. Reading the HA blog, it seems like anaerobic work would serve you well. I do 30"on 30" off for 10 minutes, rest then do 2 to 5 more sets. I also do 90 seconds but I do it as an acceleration starting at 130% FTP and increasing over time. When I do 5 minute stuff, I typically do it up a grade and after the 5 minutes, keep the power at SST for another 3 to 5 minutes. I do not just stop. I do all that work in the drops. I do not do any z1.z2 per se. I see little benefit to riding at power or speed levels not seen in events.

I suspect for Cx strength is also a factor. For strength, I do seated starts or jumps in the drops. I use 85 ish gear inches and come to a near stop and then stomp on the left pedal and accelerate. On the road I like to find a slight grade to go up. At the track, I climb the banking. The key to this effort is to engage the glutes. To do this one has to have relatively flat back and low position. What I do is in the drops, I keep a very light touch on the handlebar and lift my chest. This puts my back and pelvis is a deadlift posture so I am effectively doing one leg deadlifts on the bike. Where this could help in CX is in the technical sections where you need one massive pedal stroke or two to make it versus trying to shift and etc. At the track, riding fixed, we need a lot of strength to weight. YMMV
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Old 09-24-18, 06:54 AM
  #8437  
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I've done some stuff that's worked for a while, but have an observation and question about what to do.

Specifically I have problems doing repeated intervals in the 10min and longer range close to or over 20min max power. Sure, it's hard.

I feel with my limited time I don't have the same physiology or some kind of "density" there to handle it. But I can do the shorter 3min stuff fine now. I feel like I need to be able to be OK with some extended hard work when it's necessary.

Does something like that und/ov have its place, or could I be fine with a more standard 3x10min?

Here's what I'm talking about.......I quit this one after one set because the air conditioning in the gym failed and it was ludicrous hot in there.

Example:
https://www.strava.com/activities/1856437551
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Old 09-24-18, 07:58 AM
  #8438  
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i have found that having a larger aerobic base helps with repeatability of threshold or just sub-threshold efforts. ymmv.
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Old 09-24-18, 04:11 PM
  #8439  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
I've done some stuff that's worked for a while, but have an observation and question about what to do.

Specifically I have problems doing repeated intervals in the 10min and longer range close to or over 20min max power. Sure, it's hard.

I feel with my limited time I don't have the same physiology or some kind of "density" there to handle it. But I can do the shorter 3min stuff fine now. I feel like I need to be able to be OK with some extended hard work when it's necessary.

Does something like that und/ov have its place, or could I be fine with a more standard 3x10min?

Here's what I'm talking about.......I quit this one after one set because the air conditioning in the gym failed and it was ludicrous hot in there.

Example:
https://www.strava.com/activities/1856437551
your concern is entirely mooted by the setting of your workout. The title of your workout readsA/C broken, 90 in gym, no fan, too hot for this

I'd get the condition to: 70 F with 50% RH and at least two fans (one of which is preferably a blower) first before making conclusions. Until you do your workout in a somewhat optimal condition, it's premature to speculate on why you can't hit your numbers, b/c heat/humidity has by far the biggest influence.

I know you are active on slowtwitch, and heat/humidity is a concern that gets brought up often. A while back, i was led to this website: Maximum Performance Running: Temperature + Dew Point For Pace Adjustments. So a 8% reduction compared to optimal, right off the bat (assuming dew point of 75 F), and that's assuming there's sufficient ventilation. Frankly, it's pretty remarkable you did more than 10 minutes of over-unders.
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Old 09-25-18, 06:29 AM
  #8440  
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Originally Posted by echappist
your concern is entirely mooted by the setting of your workout. The title of your workout readsA/C broken, 90 in gym, no fan, too hot for this
I'd get the condition to: 70 F with 50% RH and at least two fans (one of which is preferably a blower) first before making conclusions. Until you do your workout in a somewhat optimal condition, it's premature to speculate on why you can't hit your numbers, b/c heat/humidity has by far the biggest influence.
Ooops, I grabbed the wrong Strava link. Also...........after I wrote the below I figured out why I probably couldn't do it yesterday. I don't have TP premium but can still see the TSS. On Sunday I did 2 hours at a pretty solid intensity over some local hills going after a PR or a KOM. Probably should pay attention to the "rest days" that fall the day before a certain workout. They probably did that on purpose. Doh!

Yes, you're right. That kind of work isn't going to go down well while trying to do it on the surface of the sun. I never should have even attempted that workout.

The link I wanted to grab showed some earlier stuff. I was fine in the plan until the under overs got over 10 minutes long and included more than 4min of "over" per set.

Here it is with the a/c working and the fan:
https://www.strava.com/activities/1862898080/overview

The feeling of discomfort was fine. My energy was gone at the close of the 2nd set. I couldn't finish.
I've heard varying things about this kind of work. I've heard both "fuel up" and also heard "you should be able to do that out of bed".
The physical feeling is of depletion, not really muscular/lactic pain or not handling the HR or breathing.

Last edited by burnthesheep; 09-25-18 at 06:56 AM.
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Old 09-25-18, 08:38 AM
  #8441  
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one other thing to point out: assuming that was the entire ride, you need a longer warm up. I prefer at least 15 minutes (used to do 30), progressively ramping from 50% to 100%. My most preferred is 8 min of noodling, 8 min spanning lower Z2 to higher Z2, followed by 5 min spanning 80% to 100%, recover for 5, and then 2 min at 100-110%. Sometimes your legs need a bit of work to get them ready, especially if you went hard the previous day.

If by depletion you mean severe muscle soreness (even before you begin the set), you may want to noddle around for 2 weeks before going hard again. Also make sure you have enough sugar in you before doing hard stuff. If you do something 4 hours after your last meal, you may want to take on some carbs an hour before the workout.
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Old 09-25-18, 09:20 AM
  #8442  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
I've done some stuff that's worked for a while, but have an observation and question about what to do.

Specifically I have problems doing repeated intervals in the 10min and longer range close to or over 20min max power. Sure, it's hard.

I feel with my limited time I don't have the same physiology or some kind of "density" there to handle it. But I can do the shorter 3min stuff fine now. I feel like I need to be able to be OK with some extended hard work when it's necessary.

Does something like that und/ov have its place, or could I be fine with a more standard 3x10min?

Here's what I'm talking about.......I quit this one after one set because the air conditioning in the gym failed and it was ludicrous hot in there.

Example:
https://www.strava.com/activities/1856437551
could respond with a lot of words, but if a 20 minute interval is a struggle mentally, it can be done a lot of different ways to make it more palatable with short term goals.

If it's physical, then it's a pacing problem, i.e. you're starting too hard and it's not sustainable until you learn to pace it properly.

FWIW - individual preferences and all that, but physically, a workout of properly paced repeated 3 minute intervals <for me> is much harder than properly paced 2x20s.

pacing is so important to training, and it's a primary reason to have a watt meter at all.
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Old 09-25-18, 09:32 AM
  #8443  
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Originally Posted by echappist
one other thing to point out: assuming that was the entire ride, you need a longer warm up. I prefer at least 15 minutes (used to do 30), progressively ramping from 50% to 100%. My most preferred is 8 min of noodling, 8 min spanning lower Z2 to higher Z2, followed by 5 min spanning 80% to 100%, recover for 5, and then 2 min at 100-110%. Sometimes your legs need a bit of work to get them ready, especially if you went hard the previous day.

If by depletion you mean severe muscle soreness (even before you begin the set), you may want to noddle around for 2 weeks before going hard again. Also make sure you have enough sugar in you before doing hard stuff. If you do something 4 hours after your last meal, you may want to take on some carbs an hour before the workout.
Yeah, when I do any real watts I need like 45min of pregame. Usually will do like 5min of tempoey stuff by feel and a couple of other 1min ftpish things before doing work. I vary it depending on how "asleep" my legs feel. I usually need to have done openers the day prior as well or else I just feel entirely blocked up the whole time.
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Old 09-25-18, 10:54 AM
  #8444  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
Ooops, I grabbed the wrong Strava link. Also...........after I wrote the below I figured out why I probably couldn't do it yesterday. I don't have TP premium but can still see the TSS. On Sunday I did 2 hours at a pretty solid intensity over some local hills going after a PR or a KOM. Probably should pay attention to the "rest days" that fall the day before a certain workout. They probably did that on purpose. Doh!

Yes, you're right. That kind of work isn't going to go down well while trying to do it on the surface of the sun. I never should have even attempted that workout.

The link I wanted to grab showed some earlier stuff. I was fine in the plan until the under overs got over 10 minutes long and included more than 4min of "over" per set.

Here it is with the a/c working and the fan:

https://www.strava.com/activities/1862898080/overview

The feeling of discomfort was fine. My energy was gone at the close of the 2nd set. I couldn't finish.
I've heard varying things about this kind of work. I've heard both "fuel up" and also heard "you should be able to do that out of bed".
The physical feeling is of depletion, not really muscular/lactic pain or not handling the HR or breathing.
My experience is that as athletes, we are all different and that is a strength. Maybe you need more glucose than others. If I am going to do something harder, which is generally all the time, I take a gel with caffeine prior to the start of the workout. Then I spend time warming up all the systems, ATP-CP, glycolytic and aerobic. Even if, one is doing a threshold, the three systems work together but aerobic is dominant in threshold work. Likewise, doing a standing start uses the ATP CP but there is a glycolytic and aerobic contribution but not much.

I have done hard morning track workouts without breakfast and it was okay. But l would not draw any conclusions about whether others should or could do that as well.

My suggestion is to try a load of glucose before you start a hard workout and see if it makes a difference.
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Old 09-25-18, 11:18 AM
  #8445  
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin
Yeah, when I do any real watts I need like 45min of pregame. Usually will do like 5min of tempoey stuff by feel and a couple of other 1min ftpish things before doing work. I vary it depending on how "asleep" my legs feel. I usually need to have done openers the day prior as well or else I just feel entirely blocked up the whole time.
i wish it were that easy to kill off 35-45 minutes warming up on the trainer (even with Zwift). I basically could do only two types of rides on my smart trainer: a) group rides where my attention is fixated upon others surrounding my avatar or b) hard interval efforts. Anything else, and I just get a feeling of dread. Watching cycling and soccer helps to alleviate it somewhat, but warm ups these days are just mind numbing
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Old 09-25-18, 05:08 PM
  #8446  
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Ahh yeah, on the trainer I'm different. I'll make sure I get in like 10-15min of z/1/2 and then I start doing my thing. I find warmups are less helpful on the trainer anyway.
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Old 09-26-18, 07:33 AM
  #8447  
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I now have a prescribed 25 min. warm up. Sometimes, I find the warm up harder than my intervals, but I think that has more to do with riding at 5 am and just being tired.
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Old 09-26-18, 09:25 AM
  #8448  
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I mostly do Sufferfest workouts on the trainer these days. They always include a 5-10 minute warm up section, which is really good.
However, I've found that the earlier in the day, the more warm up I need. So I'll get on, set the trainer to 50% and just spin for 20-30 minutes before starting the SUF video.

Just spinning is mind numbing, so I'll usually have a laptop in front of me and read email/research/facebook/twitter/etc, anything to occupy my mind.
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Old 09-26-18, 09:17 PM
  #8449  
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Indoor rides I usually just ramp up over 5-10 minutes. Outdoors rides I usually just ride to the hill or area where I'll be doing the interval. Races I have a 20-30 minute program I follow (very similar to team Sky's warmup protocol, but on rollers and high cadence).
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Old 09-27-18, 07:53 AM
  #8450  
burnthesheep
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I'm totally not good at the warmup thing indoors. Outdoors, yeah, I usually warmup pretty well.

The indoors fail:
I usually just spin 90 to 100 rpm at 100w then add 10w per 15 sec until 4 minutes are up, then try my intervals. I've done two 20min ftp tests that way too. Probably not smart and something that needs corrected.

The outdoors win:
I have to ride a couple miles to my hills I use for intervals and farting around, so have plenty of time to warmup. Usually about 10 min or so. There's a hill or two on the way, so it seems to activate things well.

Group ride:
I usually ride to it from the house. It's about 8 miles and 600 feet on the way there. Works out pretty well so long as I don't burn one trying a PR or something on the way there. I usually have to back off a little on my first pull over the rollers as I'm warm and others are warming up "we're losing people off the back!!!".
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