The Golden Boy 

I hate that "underrated" thing... who's rating?

I do know that Schwinns are greatly disrespected. There's people that can honestly not think of any Schwinn as only a 60 pound gas pipe tank.

sheddle

Ironically the reason the 80s ones are disrespected is also because the actual Schwinn collectors sometimes won't touch the Panasonic/Bridgestone stuff with a ten foot pole.


As heavy as they are, electroforged Schwinn bikes really were engineered well. Getting a derailleur equipped bike durable enough for kids/consumer use is by no means a simple problem.

pcb 

This, all freakin' day long. I'm always amazed/thrilled at how little it can cost to land a really well-made handbuilt frame from one of the lesser-known US builders. Then I'm always amazed/depressed/traumatized at how little I can get when I try to sell one. I understand few ever heard of them, and so they are therefore seldom dream/grail/nostalgia buys for anybody. Obscurity is not the kind of rarity that brings high prices. Great when you're buying, crappy on the other end.

You can add a few smaller, semi-production builders to the mix as well.

It's the fundamental equation that bothers me. You have very skilled builders, often with hundreds/+ frames under their belts, building frames one at a time, with much more care and attention than can be done on a production line. Yet clean factory production frames, granted some of them iconic, can sell for lots more. Or the used small-volume frames/bikes sell for a much lower percentage of original price than factory/production frames/completes.

On one level I totally get it, but on another level I just can't wrap my brain around it.

There are also apparently sellers more stubborn than me, who keep relisting stuff like this at prices they think/hope it's worth, but nobody's buying.

The US builder list could be exhaustive, from my own experience I've bought/ridden/sold/kept:

Walter Croll: first only Croll himself, then sold to a small group of builders after some drama
Davidson: small group of builders; Impulse are tight/racy, Navigator are sport-tour, with better tire clearance
Giuseppe Marinoni: well, Canada, but Marinoni's built heaps o' frames, and they seldom sell for big $$$
Bernie Mikkelsen: very prolific, Bernies built thousands of frames since the '70s
Peter Mooney: current/recent frames are very elaborate, but '70s-'80s stuff not so much, with lower prices
Dave Moulton/Fuso: high asking prices, low-ish actual selling prices, when they sell
Serotta: maybe a stretch, but phenomenal builders went through there, and earlier frames aren't pricey
Spectrum/Kellogg: 21st-century bikes sell high, but '80s-era not so much
Ron Stout
Rob Stowe/Phase 3
Waterford: I have a W'ford connection and am biased, but even relatively recent W'fords can sell for a fraction of new pricing

I don't know a lot about one-man British builders, but there are smaller-volume British brands that are often overlooked. Bob Jacksons often seem to get good prices, probably because so many were imported in the '70s-'80s and so in a lot of catalogs. Not so much for:

Holdsworth
Mercian: still in business, you can still order yourself a new one; recent ones can still bring some dollars, but older ones can be relative bargains
MKM
Chas. Roberts
Woodrup

As for Italian, oy vey. My nephew is stationed in Italy now, got a hankering for "an Erioca bike," and was texting me photos of the affordable stuff in his local shops, near Vincenza. So many Italian names I never, ever heard of, on really nice-looking frames. Some small builders, some major brands I had never heard of.

sheddle

Someone's actually selling a full-531 MKM for $300 here- Shimano Crane rear mech too. Gorgeous looking lugs on it, I'd get it if I had space for another bike.

Last ride 76 

My Dad got one around 1970. I didn't want it. I wanted a U-08, French like his bike... So he gave it to me, and got the Free Spirit, with alloy rims, blah, blah, blah. I learned. But what a beauty, that U-08.

madpogue 

Chrome Ross MTBs

Fahrenheit531 

When it came time to choose between them I sold my Chicago-built Paramount and kept my Panasonic-built Volare. Not necessarily the same species as the mid/late 80s models, though I've had a couple of those as well.

Underrated? Count me in for those Japanese Schwinns.

Last ride 76 

Tubing, dimensions and ride almost identical to Gios frames, at 1/3 the price. Corollary- Gios frames ride superbly.

dddd

The ~1980 Japanese-built Bianchi Super.
Un-branded DB CrMo tubing but rather light, and the geometry was pure upright Italian race bike.
Seemingly the Japanese equivalent of the Italian-built Nuovo Racing model from ~1982.
Componentry was Arabesque 600 but with Gran-Compe Italian-looking brakes.
These came fitted with rather short stems, and the less-great, early 6s freehub, but other than that...

My 1990's Mondonico-built Masi is another stellar performer, as is my Davidson Impulse.

capnjonny 

I have been working with rigid frame 80's mtn bikes lately converting them into city utility bikes. I am finding the old Schwinn s equal to most all of the other makes of the period. In the end, it is the frame that matters and theirs are fine. I just finished modernizing a Schwinn Sierra with a black chrome frame and it came out beautiful. Schwinn made sooo many different models there were bound to be the good, the bad, and the ugly, and some that were just weird, like the one with the front freewheel.

jamesdak 

Yep my PDG Paramount is a really, really good bike. I can't see ever getting rid of this one. It's a rocket and I choose keeping it over a mint 1987 waterford built Paramount. The PDG is just soooooooooo much better on the road.


This thing is a rocket and climbs much better than it should for it's weight.

This aluminum Schwinn was a cheap local buy on a whim. Didn't expect much from it yet it's also quite a good ride and look beautiful. My son has it but I want it back, LOL!


Not a harsh ride at all even though I was expecting it to be.

cb400bill

Pretty bike.

Manny66 

1970's Windsor Profesionals.

SurferRosa

I guess we are.

brian3069

Nishiki Tri-A, equal to the Ironman, half the respect.

RobbieTunes

I agree on the under-rating, but comparing a production bike to what the pros were riding; the appearance is about the only corresponding thing. Perhaps Sean's bikes were off the rack, which would have been very unusual, given the stakes involved with any rider racing at that level. There are subtle differences almost every time, all with good reason, in both the frames they were riding and the components on those frames. Sponsor logos were present, but nearly every OEM bolt and nut was replaced if there was anything better available, and cost was not much of a deterrence for a 12-bike lineup. You simply don't race for that kind of money on what any rider can walk in and buy retail. Grams and watts add up over long races; every advantage is sought.

RobbieTunes

I "rebuilt" one of those for a kid on a racing team, put on a carbon fork, modern stem, etc. powder coated.
Modern wheels, components, etc. His fellow athletes thought it was carbon and he never corrected them.

kwhiner

Four of my favs, all just happen to be mid-late-'80s Schwinns 2 Paramounts and 2 Tenex frames!!

'86 Prelude

'86 Paramount

'85 Le Tour Luxe

'89 Paramount

70sSanO

Univega never really became one of “those” bikes that people really sought after. But they were actually well made.

I have to confess that back in the 80’s I thought Univega was a Japanese brand that wasn’t quite at the same level as some other Japanese bikes, like Bridgestone or Panasonic.

But my wife still has her 1986 Viva Sport that she rides with a flat bar.

John

scarlson 

Glad you agree with me about them being underrated!

I know it was as you say the majority of the time, but it is unlikely that the industrial process of building Vitus 979 frames could have been applied to one-offs in the same way steel framebuilders often did for high-level competition. Tubes had to be formed to a female taper using rollers, heat-treated, anodized, and etched, before being bonded in a special jig. Castings joining those tubes could have been specially lightened or the "best" ones hand-selected from large batches beforehand, but the scope of this is limited. Variations in the parts necessitate variations in the tooling: to make the tubes and castings, and possibly to join them as well.

Furthermore, the art of joining an aluminum bicycle frame with tapered joints and epoxy was only patented in 1978, and Sean Kelly had the points classification in the TDF on one by '82. There wasn't much time for engineers to go after marginal gains in this novel system. Certainly they could have tried, but I don't think they would have come up with anything noticeable. I'm sure they were tearing their hair out just to make it work and not come apart. According to this video from the CNRS (centre national de la recherche scientifique), from 1983, destructive testing was still being conducted at that time, and chemical treatments investigated.

I'm not suggesting he didn't have a titanium or other alloy bolt or nut here or there, or some drilled-out tubular rims changed after every stage, or superleggero bearing balls, but based on what I know about industry, I think it would be hard to make a custom Vitus 979 frame, or even use some "special" race tubing to any effect, especially on such short time scale. An off-the-rack Vitus 979 stands a better chance of being what the pros rode - or at least very close to it - than its steel competitors.

Chombi1 

Medici.....

sheddle

A lot of them were literally just Miyatas. I think in certain years the Specialissima is effectively a rebadged Miyata 1000 which would sell for twice the price with different stickers.

due ruote 

Panasonic, Ross Signature series.

Manny66 

They were Priced the same as the top Italian bikes in their day, and they were used by the Chevrolet-L.A. Sheriffs Pro Cycling team.
Hardly under rated.

Oldbill

Mid 80's Japanese bikes built by Kawamura and Kuwahara with CrMo double/triple/quad butted frames.