john m flores 

...why did you sell/stop using your Bike Friday? Did you go back to bigger wheels? Was there something about the Bike Friday that was not up to par? Where you just ready for N+1?

I'm very interested in the Bike Fridays - either the New World Tourist or All-Packa - for a big multi-month trip. I have some experience with 20" folders - I use a Zizzo Liberte for multi-modal and local trips. Just wondering if there's something about the Bike Fridays that I'm overlooking before making a purchase decision.

Thanks...john

GhostRider62

I have one. I've toured on it using the suitcase with wheels on it to carry my stuff. I bought in 1994 IIRC. Pocket Rocket. Fits well and rides well. Never had a problem with it. Tires are odd sized at 451. There never were many good selections in that size but now Schwab One in 451x28 is available. Many more 406 size options. I would go 406 if doing it again. I just don't see much advantage over bringing a full size bike

axolotl

I'm a current, not former Bike Friday owner. They're among the best purchases of any item that I've ever made. I have a NWT I bought new in 2000, and a NWT Lite, which I'm not sure they make anymore. It's a lighter frame than the standard NWT, for lighter riders. I bought that one new 4 years ago. I've toured on them extensively. They're well-made. I've had no issues, including when packing them/unpacking them, and entrusting the packed suitcase to TSA (in the USA) and an airline. I like the ride so much it's my standard bike for running errands and pleasure rides at home. The smaller wheels make the steerng more precise, but since you said you've ridden a 20" folder, you likely know that already. I personally prefer that precise steering for urban & suburban riding. BTW, a fair bit of my touring has been in mountainous regions, and I don't feel any significant difference in climbing and descending than on a larger-wheeled touring bike. The ability to fold it has come in handy for being able to get it onto smaller buses/vans in some countries, and to take it on trains which didn't accept fully-assembled bikes.

LeeG

15 yrs ago I had a sailboat I got two BF for it. One was a NWT w a Pocket LLama front fork and the other a Pocket LLama. Excellent touring bike with 2” Big Apple in the front and 1.6” Marathon Supreme in the rear. I did a high speed descent down a mountain and was glad for the 2” front tire as I came around a turn and there was gravel and rocks across the road.

Problems, the NWT seat stay drop out cracked after a few years and the Pocket Llama pulled to the right from day one becauseframe wasn’t true. But riding hands free isn’t in the bikes design. The overall handling and design are good. For carrying loads I went with front panniers and top of rear rack, Rear panniers doesn’t makesense given the short chainstays. In soft ground or gravel it’s just not good with smaller diameter tires and heavy loads. I was 220lbs back then and 1.75 tires washed out too easily in gravel. I did a fair amount of commutting on wet roads and discovered you need a front fender that extends forward of the fork crown as water is caried forward and thrown straight up.
I think the NWT seat attachment is different now.
They make sense for folks who need to transport a bike in breakdown form but the time for breakdown and reassembly isn’t quick nor is the breakdown package particularly small. Still it made a good package for Amtrak and I used the carry bag as a ground cloth for camping under my camp pad.. Both bikes bagged up fit in a quarter berth on the boat. If I was to do it again for a boat I’d go with an old 26” mtn bike and make it easy to break down.
They fit a niche.

tcs

BF tikit. I bought another bike with the same sized wheels and the same wheelbase that folded in about half the size.

Tourist in MSN

I have never owned a Bike Friday, my folder takes 24 inch wheels. That said, I have a few comments.

I became aware of the new Bike Friday All-Packa model a few months ago, considered it for a while but eventually decided that it would be redundant with my existing folder so I am not buying one. That said, if I did not already own a folder, I might have bought that model. Although it was designed for bikepacking bags, I see no reason that racks could not be fitted and make a good touring bike. It could take wider tires that could cushion the ride better considering the smaller wheels. And it certainly has room for fenders with smaller width tires.

A decade ago I did an unsupported guided ACA tour, three of the group had Bike Fridays. Two of the three were a couple, each of them used the suitcase trailer and one also had a rear rack with panniers for overflow. When I followed them on the highway with minimal pavement to the right outside of the traffic lane, with the trailer they had three tire tracks and had to ride further into the traffic lane than you would with a bike without trailer, and the suitcase was so low to the ground that a car driver might not notice it at a closing speed of over 50 mph. Also, I have been on a few roads with rumble strips, occasionally when on such a road I thought about those two wheel trailers and was really glad that I did not have a trailer. But, for frequent air travel, I can see the suitcase trailer as being a big plus. The third Bike Friday rider in the group had two panniers in back, he appeared to be doing ok, but he carried less luggage volume than anyone else in the group. He also had a full size touring bike at home but brought the Bike Friday to save on the airline oversize fees.

If you got a Rohloff, that could negate the lower gearing that you get with small wheels. You could get some nice gearing for touring with a 50 or 52T chainring and 16T sprocket on a Rohloff.

Do you really need a folder? Would an S&S coupled bike or Ritchey Breakaway bike meet your needs instead? Or, if you do not need to make it compact for air travel, but for some other reason want a bike with smaller wheels, would a mini-velo meet your needs?

If you are doing multi-month touring, I suggest a dynohub for battery charging.

We need photos of your final decision later.

axolotl

The smaller wheels do not prevent you from getting whatever gearing you want on a Bike Friday. I had to correct you about this misconception previously.

Tourist in MSN

Yes, and I know a former Bike Friday owner that complained about inability to get higher gearing. I told him to get a Sram Dual Drive, he instead sold his Bike Friday.

And another Bike Friday owner told me that he was really bummed that Sachs no longer made the three speed hub that he had, so his wife was unable to get the higher gearing that he had. I informed him that the Sram Dual Drive replaced the Sachs unit and at that time they were readily available.

I am aware that some people put giant chainrings on 20 inch wheel bikes to get higher tears.

When I learned that the Dual Drive was going to be taken out of production, I ordered a few spare parts for mine before they became unavailable. It is my understanding that Sturmey Archer makes a hub that is very similar to the Dual Drive, if so that is one option if the high gear is an overdrive like on the Dual Drive.

Someone once told me that Shimano made a cassette with a 9T smallest cog, but I have never seen anything like that. Now Campy makes a cassette with a 9T cog, but I doubt that anyone is going to put that on a Bike Friday.

Yes there are ways to make the gearing higher, but the Bike Friday owners that I have talked to were unaware of some of the options.

If I had bought that Al-Packa model frame a few months ago when I considered building that up, I was not sure if I would go with a Rohloff or research the Sturmey Archer that is supposed to be similar to the Dual Drive. I have a Rohloff on one of my bikes that I built up a decade ago, so I am familiar with that option.

DeadGrandpa

I have a Pocket Llama with a single chain ring, 9 speed cassette and a SRAM DD3 IGH, so plenty of gear range. I never used it for touring, but on my 50+ mile training rides, I averaged about one mph slower than on my regular bike, from which came the measurements for the Bike Friday build. I really liked it, but went back to riding the carbon bike.

tcs

Sturmey has been offering 'hybrid' (IGH+derailleur) gearing since the 1930s. Their current F30 hub series (CS-RF3 & etc.) accepts 8- thru 11-speed (or some 12-) Shimano or SRAM cassettes with a three-speed IGH. They introduced these in 2010.

Quote:

Someone once told me that Shimano made a cassette with a 9T smallest cog...

The 9-speed Capreo series, with compatible hubs also offered by Chosen. The SunRace HBSX0 hubs fit SunRace 9T small, 10- and 11-speed cassettes. SRAM's top spec 12-speed cassettes offer 10T small.

Quote:

Now Campy makes a cassette with a 9T cog, but I doubt that anyone is going to put that on a Bike Friday.

BikeFriday? I dunno. The Alex Moulton New Series Safari, 20" wheels, Campagnolo Ektar 13-speed, 9-36 cassette:





...Kindernay XIV, Shimano Alfine 11, Enviolo Sportive 380, Sturmey-Archer X-RF8, Shimano Alfine 8.

Tourist in MSN

Thanks for the update.

I remember when you were considering buying a folding bike, I suggested the Dual drive for the wider range. That was several years ago, I do not recall much else in our back and for typing comments.

Tourist in MSN

Thanks for the additional detail. Wow, a Campy Ekar on a Moulton. I suspected that the derailleur might hang too low to be safe from damage on a 20 inch wheel, but if Moulton can do it, then Bike Friday should be able to do it too.

Regarding the IGH hubs like the Alfine hubs, for touring I would not suggest a drive train with less than 526 percent gear range. I was not sure what the gear ranges were for Alfine since I never considered that for touring, so googled it, those are 308 or 409 percent, assuming Google is right.

I have often spun out on my Rohloff touring bike on downhills, that has a 526 percent gear range, but that is on my heavy touring bike where I need a really low gear for heavy loads uphill so it lacks some of the upper range that I would like to have. My derailleur touring bikes have a wider 558 percent gear range which as been adequate, both on the high and low ends. I thought I might tour on my folder when I built it up, that has 540 percent gear range, but I have not toured on it, although I planned a few trips that did not happen, I might still tour on it some day.

My bikes that would never be asked to carry a touring load of weight can have smaller gear ranges like the Alfine ranges, my rando bike range is 504 percent and my road bike that I bought as a complete bike has 355 percent. (I built up my other bikes, thus I specified the gearing on those, but the road bike was built by Raleigh.) I would not suggest these narrow gear ranges for someone that wants a bike for touring.

staehpj1

Maybe not relevant, but... Decades ago I bought another folder mostly for use on my sailboat. Funny thing was that I wound up deciding the cockpit seat lockers were the best place to carry bikes and it was actually as easy to fit a non folder. The issue was the width of the opening. The length was plenty for the non folder, but the width was a problem for the folder even with the folding pedals. It barely fit with the offending pedal removed. My regular road bike went right in with just the front wheel removed.

My folder did fit in a regular 62" suitcase if you could find a samsonite oyster in that size. It was a bit of a chore and a puzzle to get it in, but possible so that was of some use. These days airline policies make that less useful though since many will let bikes fly at no oversize charge. I wound up carrying the folder in the vee berth sometimes, but it was a hassle to lug it in and out of the cabin and the vee berth was my preferred place to sleep so having it taking up space there was annoying.

My point is to be sure that the actual dimensions of the fold fit your use case. They may or may not. Somethime a folder can be nice and sometimes you can buy one and not find it to suit your usage well.

DeadGrandpa

I don't remember much about our conversation, and had all but forgotten about the Dual Drive hub until I found myself staring at the 20" Schwalbe Big Apple tires that had come on the folder originally. Since I can no longer ride a two wheeled bike, I was thinking of robbing the folder to try the tires on the front of my trike. Which led me to wonder if my trike might benefit from the Dual Drive hub. I think it would help on our trip in the Adirondacks and Vermont this summer.

But I didn't intend to derail this thread. I probably shouldn't mention again that I no longer need the folder, if the OP decides to go in that direction. For the time being, the bike is intact.

john m flores 

Thanks for the responses, so far. Here's the backstory for context...

My girlfriend and I are starting to talk about early retirement in five years and hitting the road for a big multi-year, multi-continent bike trip. She's got a Surly LHT (that could use a refresh) and I have a Cinelli Hobootleg (that needs to be ridden more). We can certainly use those bikes. But she's itching for a new ride and I'm thinking about those situations where we need to go multimodal with buses or trains or boats (we're trying to keep our footprint small and not fly) where there may be some restrictions on full-size bicycles. Or situations where we get a small room and want to bring the bikes inside with us without having them take up all the room. In those situations, a folding bike would help. So as long as there are no deal-breakers, I'm inclined to give folding touring bikes a try.

Slightly slower speeds doesn't bother us. I've heard some people talk about the lack of availability of 20" tires in remote places. And I've heard that the long cage derailleur hangs pretty close to the ground, which might be an issue on gravel or dirt. That's about it. That's why I was asking primarily for the opinions of former owners; to see if their reasons for going away from Bike Friday are things that we need to think about.

I figure that we'll need to choose our rides in the next 2-3 years and then do some shakedown trips to dial in our bikes and gear. Plus, I'm currently smitten with the new Bike Friday All-Packa. So that's spurring this discussion.

tcs

With a couple of years to play with ideas, here's an out-of-the-box:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/4083717745005783/

https://www.youtube.com/@2Bikes4Adventure

https://www.youtube.com/@MiriamKennedy

https://www.youtube.com/@BromptonTraveler

Someone might claim this is crazy talk. And someone might claim they've forgotten more about cycletouring than Heinz Stücke ever knew.

Tourist in MSN

If I was looking at a multi-year, multi-continent trip, I would seriously consider a Rohloff.

They are quite rare in USA. I have had mine now for 9 years and 11 months. Within USA I have only seen two other Rohloff hubs in person, one was on a bike from someone touring here from Europe. A neighbor is a full time bike mechanic and he tells me that mine is the only one he has ever seen. But, on my one month tour in Iceland in 2016, I saw eight other Rohloffs, so they are not as rare once you get outside USA.

They are expensive, but for living on a bike for a few years, getting the reliability and durability can be worth it. I am not saying a derailleur bike is fragile or unreliable, but bikes are not designed for abuse from baggage handlers, etc.

You have time to think about it.

Mine is chain drive. If you get one, make sure that the wheel builder has read the Rohloff instructions for wheel builders, the large and wide diameter flanges mean that the wheels have to be built a bit differently than wheels with typical hubs.

Reddleman

If the 11-speed Alfine hub doesn’t cut it for range, consider using it in conjunction with a tensioner and a double chainset. A good example is the standard Circe tandem configuration, which uses the outer two rings of a triple chainset to drive an Alfine hub on 406 wheels (the inner ring does duty for the timing chain between the stoker and the captain).

in my experience riding a loaded up folder, the higher gears go unused but having a 20” bailout gear is necessary. I suspect that I could get away with a 44T chainring and a 11-38T cassette and be prepared to freewheel downhill instead on my current setup, and save some weight and get some more clearance from the ground that way compared with my 52T/11-46T setup with a medium length derailleur.

john m flores 

It's funny, but I haven't seriously considered Bromptons, despite knowing some of the stories you posted. They're designed for urban, multi-modal travel, and compromised (all bikes are compromises) in that direction. And while you can use it for global travel, it's mentally a bridge too far for me at the moment. Granted, I've never ridden one so I may have to give one a try.
Then again...
https://www.eerdermetaal.nl/brompton...collectie.html

Yeah, I've thought about them. I go back and forth between wanting to go relatively frugal and not feel so attached to the bike (in case we swap them mid-journey for motorcycles and/or being exceedingly worried about an expensive bike whenever it's out of sight) and going for a really nice build. I've never spent more than $1k for a bike, so even the Bike Friday is a mental stretch for me.

That's an interesting option for sure. Reliability is highly desired, for obvious reasons. But cost is a concern too, and this option would likely cost less than a Rohloff.

Thanks for the continued feedback...john

raybo

I have a Bike Friday New World Tourist and a Waterford Adventurecycle (S&S couplers). The Bike Friday lives in the UK while the Waterford is in the US. The one I tour with depends on the continent I'm on.

I find that the Bike Friday rides like a "normal" bike, though it is a bit twitchy. My main complaint about it is that when I am standing over it, say, to take a photo, the bike is unstable. On my last tour (September, 2022 in Ireland), the bike went down (this is fairly common) and it pushed me down, as well while I was trying to take a photo. That never happens with the Waterford.

Also, for the first time, I bought a bag specifically designed to hold the Bike Friday with the thought that I could use it to take the bike folded on a train or bus. While folding the bike doesn't take long, getting it into the bag was a major hassle. Carrying the bag with the bike in it was very difficult and I could only do it for a few hundred feet at a time before stopping and taking it off my shoulder for a short break (the strap provided isn't padded and it "cuts" hard into the skin). Eventually, I realized that in order to get the folded bike into the bag, I had to do a bit of disassembly, like remove the rear rack and take off the front wheel. Still, it was a struggle. The idea that I would ride up to a train station, fold the bike and put it into its bag and then get on the train was a non-starter for me.

In addition, once the bike is in the bag, it is both unwieldy and bigger than any of the luggage storage places on the trains I took. I ended up storing in the place on the train where one would put an unfolded bike, so nothing was actually saved there. When folded the bike Friday is an assemblage of cables and metal bits that is hard to carry easily.

I write all this to let you know that if you are looking for bikes that are "easy" to fold and take onto trains or buses, be sure that you actually see what it takes to fold the bike, what it looks like when it is folded, how easy is it to carry when folded, and how hard it is to get it into a bag, if needed.

axolotl

I have ridden a Brompton. It's well designed and folds quickly into a neat package. But I can't imagine touring on one. It simply doesn't ride like my Bike Friday or full-size Bridgestone RB-T. I've biked up the Col du Tourmalet with panniers on my Bike Friday NWT. I doubt I could have done that on a Brompton.

When I was touring with a friend in France who also was riding a Bike Friday NWT, we quickly learned that it is much easier to get our folded bikes into a bag (even a large garbage bag!) if we removed the pedals first. That way it folds into a much flatter package and goes into a bag easily. We had no problem fitting them into designated baggage spaces on French trains. I agree that they're unwieldy, however.

I was able to fold my NWT Lite with no bag so that it would fit into the limited space on a minibus in Colombia. I did something similar with my older NWT in Thailand. The bus driver was very impressed.

tcs

Col du Tourmalet. 6940 feet, right?

Tourist in MSN

I agree with everything you said. But I would add to that that there is that first fold that takes seconds, but packing it into a small case or bag might take a lot more time.

My folder has 24 inch wheels, so not really applicable to the discussion, but it makes a good example here, to carry it up the stairs in the motel and store it in the room, the first fold was less than a minute and made the situation more simple than a full size bike.



It would have taken another couple minutes to lower the seatpost, disconnect the steerer tube extender and strap the parts together with velcro if I needed to make it more compact to take on a train. If I had a rear pannier rack on it, it would have been bigger too. That still would have been much more compact and quick compared to a full size bike.

But to fit it in an S&S Backpack case for airline travel meant removing the fork and crank arms, rather complicated. Almost as complicated as my S&S coupled bike. That is the other extreme for complexity, in this case a folder has little to offer over a coupled full size bike.

axolotl

No panniers, right?


This is Mont Ventoux. Note the panniers & handlebar bag. BTW, I've biked up Trail Ridge Rd, Berthoud Pass, & Loveland Pass, all fully loaded but before I had a Bike Friday.

john m flores 

Thanks for this feedback. We don't expect to be be folding the bike on a daily or weekly basis, just that odd time when we'd like to catch a bus or train where a full-size bike is not permitted or we are staying in a small room for a spell and folded bikes help manage limited space.

So a fast, small fold like a Bromptom isn't necessary and likely not worth the compromises of such a bike.