How learning works (or doesn't)
02-25-23, 03:17 PM
#51
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At least I don't get warnings from the Mods for insulting people and calling people all kinds of names. Your lack of tolerance for anybody who doesn't use the newest high tech is well known and it seems that anybody who doesn't use the latest tech is a luddite and backwards. Using older simpler bike technology doesn't mean that the person is wrong or close minded to learning new things. Look at your first post in this thread, you use a word dick to describe anybody who doesn't agree with you.. Not very educational.
02-25-23, 03:20 PM
#52
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For most of these threads that go off the rails the common theme is there is a irrational group of participants who cannot accept that the cycling has moved on from the 70’s. Even though it was one of the most stagnant periods in the sport technology wise a majority of forum participants imprinted on this times myths and its halo products. Skinny high pressure tubulars, Campagnolo Record Components and the silliest of all, factory made frame sets being pawned of as handmade pieces of foreign art. Debating logic with this group which treat there opinions more like a religion quickly deteriorates into a feces slinging episode. Disc brakes, carbon frame sets, wide supple tubeless tires, electronic shifting all sends these Luddites off the deep end.
Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 02-25-23 at 07:13 PM.
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02-25-23, 03:32 PM
#53
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Needs more rules:
8. Just because something is old, doesn't mean that it is no good. For example: tubular tires - due to the inherently superior rim profile, tubular rim/tire combos are lighter, stronger and safer than all clincher derivatives, tubeless or otherwise. Clinchers may be adequate for casual cycling due to cost and convenience, but are not competitive at the elite level, in any cycling discipline: 'cross, road, mtb and track.
9. Just because something is new, doesn't mean that it is bad. Electronic shifting, brifters, carbon anything.
10. Just because something is new, doesn't mean that is good. Example: disc brakes on performance bikes. I know - yada yada yada, discs are better when riding a bike loaded down with camping gear while riding down steep hills in the rain with frozen hands, but for performance road riding, they are just an impediment inappropriately borrowed from the MTB world for newb road cyclists that don't know any better. They are heavy, fussy and unnecessary.
11. If you are in the bike industry, and are forced to sell (new) stuff doesn't mean you have to believe the BS. Keep your sales pitch separate from your real thoughts. Keep reminding yourself of reality to prevent the sales pitch from taking over.
12. If you've just spent a ton of money on a new road bike with discs, tubeless, a dropper post and sloping top tube, and then have subsequently realized that it is a heavy sluggish downgrade from your previous road bike, don't sell yourself and especially others on your mistake. Show some intellectual dignity, cut your losses and move on.
8. Just because something is old, doesn't mean that it is no good. For example: tubular tires - due to the inherently superior rim profile, tubular rim/tire combos are lighter, stronger and safer than all clincher derivatives, tubeless or otherwise. Clinchers may be adequate for casual cycling due to cost and convenience, but are not competitive at the elite level, in any cycling discipline: 'cross, road, mtb and track.
9. Just because something is new, doesn't mean that it is bad. Electronic shifting, brifters, carbon anything.
10. Just because something is new, doesn't mean that is good. Example: disc brakes on performance bikes. I know - yada yada yada, discs are better when riding a bike loaded down with camping gear while riding down steep hills in the rain with frozen hands, but for performance road riding, they are just an impediment inappropriately borrowed from the MTB world for newb road cyclists that don't know any better. They are heavy, fussy and unnecessary.
11. If you are in the bike industry, and are forced to sell (new) stuff doesn't mean you have to believe the BS. Keep your sales pitch separate from your real thoughts. Keep reminding yourself of reality to prevent the sales pitch from taking over.
12. If you've just spent a ton of money on a new road bike with discs, tubeless, a dropper post and sloping top tube, and then have subsequently realized that it is a heavy sluggish downgrade from your previous road bike, don't sell yourself and especially others on your mistake. Show some intellectual dignity, cut your losses and move on.
02-25-23, 03:41 PM
#54
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Exactly, it would be like going onto a forum for Beanie Baby collectors and mocking those who get excited about finding a rare 1st series Lady Bug. The hobby of collecting is a passion on its own and can’t be rationalized.
02-25-23, 03:52 PM
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Needs more rules:
8. Just because something is old, doesn't mean that it is no good. For example: tubular tires - due to the inherently superior rim profile, tubular rim/tire combos are lighter, stronger and safer than all clincher derivatives, tubeless or otherwise. Clinchers may be adequate for casual cycling due to cost and convenience, but are not competitive at the elite level, in any cycling discipline: 'cross, road, mtb and track.
9. Just because something is new, doesn't mean that it is bad. Electronic shifting, brifters, carbon anything.
10. Just because something is new, doesn't mean that is good. Example: disc brakes on performance bikes. I know - yada yada yada, discs are better when riding a bike loaded down with camping gear while riding down steep hills in the rain with frozen hands, but for performance road riding, they are just an impediment inappropriately borrowed from the MTB world for newb road cyclists that don't know any better. They are heavy, fussy and unnecessary.
11. If you are in the bike industry, and are forced to sell (new) stuff doesn't mean you have to believe the BS. Keep your sales pitch separate from your real thoughts. Keep reminding yourself of reality to prevent the sales pitch from taking over.
12. If you've just spent a ton of money on a new road bike with discs, tubeless, a dropper post and sloping top tube, and then have subsequently realized that it is a heavy sluggish downgrade from your previous road bike, don't sell yourself and especially others on your mistake. Show some intellectual dignity, cut your losses and move on.
8. Just because something is old, doesn't mean that it is no good. For example: tubular tires - due to the inherently superior rim profile, tubular rim/tire combos are lighter, stronger and safer than all clincher derivatives, tubeless or otherwise. Clinchers may be adequate for casual cycling due to cost and convenience, but are not competitive at the elite level, in any cycling discipline: 'cross, road, mtb and track.
9. Just because something is new, doesn't mean that it is bad. Electronic shifting, brifters, carbon anything.
10. Just because something is new, doesn't mean that is good. Example: disc brakes on performance bikes. I know - yada yada yada, discs are better when riding a bike loaded down with camping gear while riding down steep hills in the rain with frozen hands, but for performance road riding, they are just an impediment inappropriately borrowed from the MTB world for newb road cyclists that don't know any better. They are heavy, fussy and unnecessary.
11. If you are in the bike industry, and are forced to sell (new) stuff doesn't mean you have to believe the BS. Keep your sales pitch separate from your real thoughts. Keep reminding yourself of reality to prevent the sales pitch from taking over.
12. If you've just spent a ton of money on a new road bike with discs, tubeless, a dropper post and sloping top tube, and then have subsequently realized that it is a heavy sluggish downgrade from your previous road bike, don't sell yourself and especially others on your mistake. Show some intellectual dignity, cut your losses and move on.
Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 02-25-23 at 07:12 PM.
02-25-23, 04:00 PM
#56
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Some the posters here will eventually notice that I only respond when those post positive and substantive material. Flame away. Or don't.
I will engage anyone is an honest discussion, but i will not tolerate much else anymore. I don't need to put people on "ignore." I can just skip the posts that are not actually contributions (IMO, of course) and hope that later those people might actually make things better, or at least try to.
What I have done in the past, mistakes I am making now or might make in the future ... so what? So long as I am actually making an effort to upgrade myself, and therefore all my interactions here on BF ... I am not claiming to be perfect. I am stati9ng that I am trying to improve.
People who object in any way for any reason ... are certainly free to.
I will engage anyone is an honest discussion, but i will not tolerate much else anymore. I don't need to put people on "ignore." I can just skip the posts that are not actually contributions (IMO, of course) and hope that later those people might actually make things better, or at least try to.
What I have done in the past, mistakes I am making now or might make in the future ... so what? So long as I am actually making an effort to upgrade myself, and therefore all my interactions here on BF ... I am not claiming to be perfect. I am stati9ng that I am trying to improve.
People who object in any way for any reason ... are certainly free to.
02-25-23, 06:49 PM
#57
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Rules of the Internet:
- Rule 11: No matter how much you love debating, keep in mind that no one on the internet debates. Instead they mock your intelligence as well as your parents. Explanation
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02-25-23, 07:00 PM
#58
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If you’re going to run it up to twelve it should be the Scout Law. If you are keeping it to four it can be Right Speech from Buddhism
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Genesis 49:16-17
Genesis 49:16-17
02-25-23, 07:04 PM
#59
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...from way back in 2008, reference cached right here on Teh Biekforums: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=484294 - How to argue: Logical Fallacies and more
...from way back in 2008, reference cached right here on Teh Biekforums: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=484294 - How to argue: Logical Fallacies and more
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02-25-23, 07:06 PM
#60
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02-25-23, 07:08 PM
#61
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Needs more rules:
8. Just because something is old, doesn't mean that it is no good. For example: tubular tires - due to the inherently superior rim profile, tubular rim/tire combos are lighter, stronger and safer than all clincher derivatives, tubeless or otherwise. Clinchers may be adequate for casual cycling due to cost and convenience, but are not competitive at the elite level, in any cycling discipline: 'cross, road, mtb and track.
9. Just because something is new, doesn't mean that it is bad. Electronic shifting, brifters, carbon anything.
10. Just because something is new, doesn't mean that is good. Example: disc brakes on performance bikes. I know - yada yada yada, discs are better when riding a bike loaded down with camping gear while riding down steep hills in the rain with frozen hands, but for performance road riding, they are just an impediment inappropriately borrowed from the MTB world for newb road cyclists that don't know any better. They are heavy, fussy and unnecessary.
11. If you are in the bike industry, and are forced to sell (new) stuff doesn't mean you have to believe the BS. Keep your sales pitch separate from your real thoughts. Keep reminding yourself of reality to prevent the sales pitch from taking over.
12. If you've just spent a ton of money on a new road bike with discs, tubeless, a dropper post and sloping top tube, and then have subsequently realized that it is a heavy sluggish downgrade from your previous road bike, don't sell yourself and especially others on your mistake. Show some intellectual dignity, cut your losses and move on.
8. Just because something is old, doesn't mean that it is no good. For example: tubular tires - due to the inherently superior rim profile, tubular rim/tire combos are lighter, stronger and safer than all clincher derivatives, tubeless or otherwise. Clinchers may be adequate for casual cycling due to cost and convenience, but are not competitive at the elite level, in any cycling discipline: 'cross, road, mtb and track.
9. Just because something is new, doesn't mean that it is bad. Electronic shifting, brifters, carbon anything.
10. Just because something is new, doesn't mean that is good. Example: disc brakes on performance bikes. I know - yada yada yada, discs are better when riding a bike loaded down with camping gear while riding down steep hills in the rain with frozen hands, but for performance road riding, they are just an impediment inappropriately borrowed from the MTB world for newb road cyclists that don't know any better. They are heavy, fussy and unnecessary.
11. If you are in the bike industry, and are forced to sell (new) stuff doesn't mean you have to believe the BS. Keep your sales pitch separate from your real thoughts. Keep reminding yourself of reality to prevent the sales pitch from taking over.
12. If you've just spent a ton of money on a new road bike with discs, tubeless, a dropper post and sloping top tube, and then have subsequently realized that it is a heavy sluggish downgrade from your previous road bike, don't sell yourself and especially others on your mistake. Show some intellectual dignity, cut your losses and move on.
8. Everyone should agree with my equipment biases.
Last edited by tomato coupe; 02-26-23 at 01:16 AM. Reason: typo
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02-25-23, 07:25 PM
#62
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...finally, a question for speculative abandon: why do you think there are so few women present in this particular forum ?
And as a bonus question (extra credit will be awarded), why do you suppose there is a secretive women only forum?
My own speculation on this, (a simple demographic that has been obvious for many years,) is that women learn pretty quickly it's not a discussion forum. Back when I worked, where I worked, it was often referenced as "testosterone poisoning." It leads to such conclusions as "I ride to go fast, most usually without stopping, because that would affect my Strava records." Some symptoms are short one liners, low empathy scores, and occasional short grunts, more or less at random, while seated at the computer.
...finally, a question for speculative abandon: why do you think there are so few women present in this particular forum ?
And as a bonus question (extra credit will be awarded), why do you suppose there is a secretive women only forum?
My own speculation on this, (a simple demographic that has been obvious for many years,) is that women learn pretty quickly it's not a discussion forum. Back when I worked, where I worked, it was often referenced as "testosterone poisoning." It leads to such conclusions as "I ride to go fast, most usually without stopping, because that would affect my Strava records." Some symptoms are short one liners, low empathy scores, and occasional short grunts, more or less at random, while seated at the computer.
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02-25-23, 07:26 PM
#63
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02-25-23, 07:27 PM
#64
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Don't feed the troll.
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02-25-23, 08:52 PM
#65
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...are you gonna follow all my posts with this ? Once was cool, twice was funny, and if it gets to be habitual, there's a forum stalking rule, that will eventually be enforced. I think it's on topic to mention it, in a thread that is about the rules for debate. But you are more than free to put me on ignore, and you can send top secret PM's to all your backslap "like" buddies to do the same. Start a clique in the 6th grade lunchroom. That would be a good way to handle this, rather than a running stream of ad hominem's.
It's a free country, and everyone here gets to choose.
...are you gonna follow all my posts with this ? Once was cool, twice was funny, and if it gets to be habitual, there's a forum stalking rule, that will eventually be enforced. I think it's on topic to mention it, in a thread that is about the rules for debate. But you are more than free to put me on ignore, and you can send top secret PM's to all your backslap "like" buddies to do the same. Start a clique in the 6th grade lunchroom. That would be a good way to handle this, rather than a running stream of ad hominem's.
It's a free country, and everyone here gets to choose.
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02-25-23, 09:07 PM
#66
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...the internet is filled with opinion presented as fact. Sometimes, I think it's why Al Gore invented it. Much of the "wrongness" that gets pointed out here is simply not based on fact. Surely you must understand this ? Otherwise, why would we live in such a deeply divided country ?
02-25-23, 09:17 PM
#67
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Some the posters here will eventually notice that I only respond when those post positive and substantive material. Flame away. Or don't.
I will engage anyone is an honest discussion, but i will not tolerate much else anymore. I don't need to put people on "ignore." I can just skip the posts that are not actually contributions (IMO, of course) and hope that later those people might actually make things better, or at least try to.
What I have done in the past, mistakes I am making now or might make in the future ... so what? So long as I am actually making an effort to upgrade myself, and therefore all my interactions here on BF ... I am not claiming to be perfect. I am stati9ng that I am trying to improve.
I will engage anyone is an honest discussion, but i will not tolerate much else anymore. I don't need to put people on "ignore." I can just skip the posts that are not actually contributions (IMO, of course) and hope that later those people might actually make things better, or at least try to.
What I have done in the past, mistakes I am making now or might make in the future ... so what? So long as I am actually making an effort to upgrade myself, and therefore all my interactions here on BF ... I am not claiming to be perfect. I am stati9ng that I am trying to improve.
The moral high ground, in ethical or political parlance, refers to the status of being respected for remaining moral, and adhering to and upholding a universally recognized standard of justice or goodness. In derogatory context, the term is often used to metaphorically describe a position of self-righteousness.
In everyday use a person may take the perspective of the 'moral high ground' in order to produce a critique of something, or merely to win an argument. This perspective is sometimes associated to snobbery but may also be a legitimate way of taking up a stance.
In everyday use a person may take the perspective of the 'moral high ground' in order to produce a critique of something, or merely to win an argument. This perspective is sometimes associated to snobbery but may also be a legitimate way of taking up a stance.
Me, I'm a moral relativist, so it's hard for me to stand here and look up at anyone. That may or may not be my problem. I think the fact that I have some exposure to cognition studies and educational methods classes is the other one. But that would be an argument from authority (like rule # 1), and I don't do argument from authority. I try pretty hard to listen, respond on topic, and then go do more important things. Tax time is coming up, so it might be time to organize.
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02-25-23, 09:18 PM
#68
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02-25-23, 09:30 PM
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02-26-23, 07:37 AM
#71
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You actually make a great example of someone unable to separate their personal preferences from fact. Your statement above is completely false and yet you believe it to be an absolute truth.
02-26-23, 07:50 AM
#72
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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
...not a complaint, only an observation. This thread began as an attempt at claiming the moral high ground, and that's probably why I initially found it so entertaining. You might very well feel that you have turned an important corner in your life, and I applaud you for that.
Me, I'm a moral relativist, so it's hard for me to stand here and look up at anyone. That may or may not be my problem. I think the fact that I have some exposure to cognition studies and educational methods classes is the other one. But that would be an argument from authority (like rule # 1), and I don't do argument from authority. I try pretty hard to listen, respond on topic, and then go do more important things. Tax time is coming up, so it might be time to organize.
...not a complaint, only an observation. This thread began as an attempt at claiming the moral high ground, and that's probably why I initially found it so entertaining. You might very well feel that you have turned an important corner in your life, and I applaud you for that.
Me, I'm a moral relativist, so it's hard for me to stand here and look up at anyone. That may or may not be my problem. I think the fact that I have some exposure to cognition studies and educational methods classes is the other one. But that would be an argument from authority (like rule # 1), and I don't do argument from authority. I try pretty hard to listen, respond on topic, and then go do more important things. Tax time is coming up, so it might be time to organize.
Last edited by seypat; 02-26-23 at 08:43 AM.
02-26-23, 07:57 AM
#73
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7. Don't be a dick about it.
When I think about this forum, this is my first thought. It's full of snarky a-holes. I belong to other (hobby type) sports forums - and they aren't like this. As I write this, I fully expect a snarky reply.
When I think about this forum, this is my first thought. It's full of snarky a-holes. I belong to other (hobby type) sports forums - and they aren't like this. As I write this, I fully expect a snarky reply.
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02-26-23, 08:09 AM
#74
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Some guy named Filippo Ganna uses clinchers to go fast. Imagine if he used tubulars.
My 1972 Masi GC has a very nice set of them along with period correct accouterments. The bike is slow and uncomfortable compared to my aerodynamic carbon fibre bike with disk brakes, Firecrest 303 with 32 mm tubeless and a saddle made by a 3D printer out of plastic. I do still like my Brooks B17 with Ti rails.
My 1972 Masi GC has a very nice set of them along with period correct accouterments. The bike is slow and uncomfortable compared to my aerodynamic carbon fibre bike with disk brakes, Firecrest 303 with 32 mm tubeless and a saddle made by a 3D printer out of plastic. I do still like my Brooks B17 with Ti rails.
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02-26-23, 08:13 AM
#75
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