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Alleged Angeles Crest Road Rage Incident Involves Cyclists

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Alleged Angeles Crest Road Rage Incident Involves Cyclists

Old 07-07-11, 01:53 PM
  #126  
Keith99
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
Exactly, and exactly, I think that the case of Selz v Trotwood is one of those cases that has helped to clarify the law by stating that a cyclist traveling at a speed that is reasonable for them cannot be cited as impeding traffic as they are also part of traffic.
It is worth noting that in this case there were 2 lanes in each direction (along with a 5th lane for left turns). So this case speaks to a limited situation.

In the link I found there was one very funny thing. It seems he was pulled over and ticketed when starting from a light. It is entirely possible he was going just as fast as the average driver would have been at that point.
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Old 07-08-11, 01:29 AM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
Agreed to a point. But as I've said given that we cyclists have the most to lose if the area that a motorist chooses for them (the cyclist) to pull over and let them (the motorist) pass turns out not to be safe. Their (the cyclists) judgment should weigh more than the motorists. And as you've said if the motorist and the LEO on the scene don't agree that is what the courts are for.
I think that most here would agree that a cyclist riding in the left tire track of a 30' wide lane is a gross violation of any states FRAP requirements (unless said cyclist was preparing to make a left hand turn). And such a cyclist should be challenged either by a LEO and/or in court.
Agreed.

Exactly, and exactly, I think that the case of Selz v Trotwood is one of those cases that has helped to clarify the law by stating that a cyclist traveling at a speed that is reasonable for them cannot be cited as impeding traffic as they are also part of traffic.
Sort of agree. My point was that you can still be impeding traffic, even traveling at reasonable speed for your vehicle, if you don't allow faster traffic to pass when safe. In California, under the law I cited, even if you are traveling the speed limit and speeding traffic wishes to pass, you are still under obligation to turn out and allow passing. I don't believe the Selz v Trotwood case would render this law impotent for cyclists. We have the right to travel on the roadway as anyone else, and our very presence/slow speed can't be considered impeding traffic, but we still have the ability to impede traffic by not facilitating passing. With that clarification, I agree.

Sadly, I think that the highlighted part is more likely to be true as evidenced by the number of posts that we have here about cyclists who have gotten buzzed while on their rides. Exactly, sadly there will always be a large share of jerks, and they're on both sides of the roads. Exactly, respect is a two-way street and I try to be respectful to other road users.

But if it's going to place my life or safety at risk than I'm sorry but by ass/safety takes priority over being respectful.
I agree, but I think too often some consider it a zero-sum game, when in reality you can usually do both (in my experience). But no, I don't want to imply you should sacrifice your safety for the convenience of others. Even legally speaking, better to be tried by twelve and all that...

Exactly, and those cyclists who run run red lights, stop signs, blow past pedestrians at a high rate of speed, or doing nothing to show that we can all live together safely. And also sadly as we know it's the minority who are the bad apples, and that most folks remember them and not the majority who are sharing the road with other road users.
As I said, I think there is some animosity because of those they perceive as "scofflaws", but mostly they just don't care. This, of course, can vary widely between communities.

Last edited by sudo bike; 07-08-11 at 01:32 AM.
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Old 07-08-11, 02:00 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
It is worth noting that in this case there were 2 lanes in each direction (along with a 5th lane for left turns). So this case speaks to a limited situation.

In the link I found there was one very funny thing. It seems he was pulled over and ticketed when starting from a light. It is entirely possible he was going just as fast as the average driver would have been at that point.
And I think that it is safe to say that a lot of us regularly ride on roads with multiple lanes for direction of travel. And in a situation like that where a car can safely move over into the second lane how is a cyclist "impeding" anyone? In such a case isn't it the motorist who has chosen to stay behind a slower moving vehicle when they could have easily moved over and passed the slower vehicle?

And speaking of multi-lane roads can anybody please explain to us why it is that when traveling on a multi-lane road and the other lane is clear of any appreciable traffic why a motorist cannot move into the other lane? Why do they have to straddle the white line dividing the two lanes?

Even on a road that only has one lane for each direction, why can't motorists fully change lanes when passing a cyclist? Why do they have to straddle the line dividing the two lanes? Hell even on roads without lanes why can't motorists fully move over to the other side of the road when passing us? Why do they have to try and see how close they can pass us?
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Old 07-08-11, 02:26 AM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by sudo bike View Post
Agreed.
Thank you.

Originally Posted by sudo bike View Post
Sort of agree. My point was that you can still be impeding traffic, even traveling at reasonable speed for your vehicle, if you don't allow faster traffic to pass when safe. In California, under the law I cited, even if you are traveling the speed limit and speeding traffic wishes to pass, you are still under obligation to turn out and allow passing. I don't believe the Selz v Trotwood case would render this law impotent for cyclists. We have the right to travel on the roadway as anyone else, and our very presence/slow speed can't be considered impeding traffic, but we still have the ability to impede traffic by not facilitating passing. With that clarification, I agree.
Thank you for the clarification.

Originally Posted by sudo bike View Post
I agree, but I think too often some consider it a zero-sum game, when in reality you can usually do both (in my experience). But no, I don't want to imply you should sacrifice your safety for the convenience of others. Even legally speaking, better to be tried by twelve and all that...
Agreed, which is why I think that most here recommend that when we are riding down the road to do so in a defensive manner so that if we happen to encounter one of those (admittedly few) motorists who don't know how or like to share the road we can safely get out of their way.

An example of that is when I rode my bike to my gf's father's house for a party. Or actually more correct to say riding home after the party. I was riding on Park Blvd, and using my rearview mirror I was keeping an eye on the traffic behind me for anyone who didn't look they'd be moving over in time to allow a safe enough margin between them and me and was picking out the most likely driveways to turn into to get on the sidewalk and out of their way. When I ride on 1st St. N. (a street I am more familiar with) I have to leave it less often for my safety. That's probably because I usually travel it at the about the same time everyday, as do I am sure most people and they've grown accustomed to seeing me on the road. And hopefully some of them having seen me on "their" roads so often will start to feel "protective" towards me.

Thank you, but sadly as I'm sure you've noticed we do seem to have some that seem to be advocating that. Or that we should be doing everything in our power (even if it inconveniences us) to be "accommodating" to motorists. That to me is not sharing, that is saying that as a cyclist that my time and destination is somehow less important than that of a motorists. Which again I am sure that we all here know is just not true.

Originally Posted by sudo bike View Post
As I said, I think there is some animosity because of those they perceive as "scofflaws", but mostly they just don't care. This, of course, can vary widely between communities.
This is true. And a good example of motorists and cyclists getting along in what could easily turn into a very dangerous situation for the cyclist. Is when I was coming home from the town hall meeting over in Tampa about what to do about the Friendship Trail bridge which used to be a span of the Gandy bridge (I guess technically it still is).

As I approached BK (on the Tampa side) Gandy Blvd leading up to the Gandy bridge which is normally a two lane road in both directions (with the exception of left turn only lanes scattered along it) went from a two lane road to a one lane road as they'd closed the left most lane for construction of some sort.

I was riding a little further to the right than I normally do given the higher speed on Gandy, but no one was passing me, hell no one was even honking their horns at me. They patiently waited until the left lane opened up and than they all orderly proceeded to move over into the left lane. Once I got on the Gandy bridge I moved over into the break down lane which is about a cars width wide and I can see no reason for me to be in the travel lane.

I also have to say that whenever I travel either the Gandy or the Bayside bridges (both of which I travel in the break down lane) I cannot recall having anyone honking at me. It could be that even though it's posted at 55MPH that I think that it's safe to say that there are few if any who are actually traveling at that speed and that by the time that they see me, they're already past me. And as such it's too late for them to say or doing anything about it.

Given mine (and I'm sure other cyclists experiences on similar roads) there may be something to my suggestion that a bike lane to be truly function it should be about 8 - 9' wide. If we had our own WOL painted and designated as a bike lane with the exception of right turning traffic and being made clear to motorists that hey have to yield to us (or at least made clearer than it already is/should be) would that lessen the harassment that some of seem to get on a regular basis?
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Old 07-08-11, 02:33 AM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
And speaking of multi-lane roads can anybody please explain to us why it is that when traveling on a multi-lane road and the other lane is clear of any appreciable traffic why a motorist cannot move into the other lane? Why do they have to straddle the white line dividing the two lanes?
I don't know. Fortunately it's relatively rare for me but it does amaze me. It's also illegal in California. If there is more than one lane in the given direction, you are required by CVC 21658 to be in one or the other but not both. You only get to be in both when moving from one to the other.
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Old 07-08-11, 03:03 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by billdsd View Post
I don't know. Fortunately it's relatively rare for me but it does amaze me. It's also illegal in California. If there is more than one lane in the given direction, you are required by CVC 21658 to be in one or the other but not both. You only get to be in both when moving from one to the other.
One would think that it is or should be also be illegal in all states. As it does seem to be a rather blatant safety hazard.

The other thing I'd like to know is why do some motorists feel the need to swoop around us and beat us to the stop sign/traffic light? It doesn't really gain them anything, and 9 times out of ten if it's a traffic light they usually end up getting "lost" in their cell phone and end up spending half of the green light texting.

So really what have they saved? Or what (other than "proving" that they can beat a cyclist to the red light) have they proved?
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Old 08-30-19, 10:52 AM
  #132  
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I live minutes away from Angeles Crest and let me say that if you’re riding it on a weekend, it better be before about 8am that you’re finished. Lots of people up there use it to race on, even “old people” like to go 10-20mph over the speed limit. And on weekdays, there is a super duper rush of traffic every day heading down to LA from about 5:00am to 8:00am. And coming from LA there’s a super rush from about 6:00 to 10:00pm. It’s really fast. Dangerous to even be in a car. People go flying off the edge, flip their cars on their roofs. Go 2 wheels into the dirt. Pass illegally on double yellows and sometimes half blind corners. It’s absolutely nuts!

I’ve ridden all the way through it and it’s in extremely good condition. But get this: last time when I went through, it was a Tuesday and I rode through it somewhere between 11am and 2-3pm. I probably saw less than 10 cars. Maybe less than 5! I had the entire road to myself.

There are probably about 20-30,000 commuters that go through the road every day. There’s only a handful of passing lanes. There’s a handful of bridges that squeeze the shoulder. There are many sections with very wide turnouts and viewpoints. But these are spread miles apart.

So I have to say that while I obviously don’t want any cyclists to be ran over, I truly don’t think any responsible cyclist would be up there. You will end up dead. Your fault or not doesn’t matter!

I have taken up this technique for all roads now, (which happen to be in the vicinity of this story)
I take the lane aggressively, and then I keep an eye on rearward traffic. When someone is within 1/3rd of a mile I purposely swerve a little and I stick my left arm up and wave 👋 👋 a big broad sweeping wave. I pretend that I’m a Race across America rider or something (or maybe someone will think I’m “special”) then I slowly roll over towards the shoulder as they get within about 150 feet and wave again and turn my head. Guess what?! A ton of people wave back. I get friendly beeps and waves.

It feels stupid and embarrassing but I’ve noticed that on 2 lane roads people will be in the other lane 300 feet back to give me space.

Last edited by Tulok; 08-30-19 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 09-03-19, 05:59 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by GeoBigJon View Post
Glad he's off the road.
I wonder how long it will be. Before he is back on the road again.
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Old 09-03-19, 09:35 AM
  #134  
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You dragged up a 7 year old thread.
I knew someone from work that died on their Ducati on AC.
Here is my take on it. Bikers...... write your name on a piece of paper and put it in a tumbler. Every weekend a name is drawn and that person is dead.
Good ridding skills... doesn't matter. Dead. Every weekend I see the green and yellow Sheriff rescue copter come down from there to Huntington Hospital.
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Old 09-03-19, 02:03 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
As to the myth that cyclists riding two-abreast being either "rude" or "wrong." Stop and think about this. Which is easier for a motorists to pass? Two cyclists riding two-abreast taking up pretty much the same amount of space as any car on the road, or two cyclists who are riding single file, creating an "obstacle" that is twice as long and those takes longer to pass?

You are not thinking like a self centered driver. Such a driver does not care about the safety of the cyclist. Their care about the precious few seconds they are losing and to not scratch the paint on their vehicle as they pass. So they will pass as soon as it is phycally possible even if that means coming within inches of the cyclist in the same lane.

If they need to go into the on-coming lane, they will do so as little as possible to pass. In other words, if they can pass with just 1/4 of their vehicle in the on-coming lane, then they will even if it means they are crowding a cyclist.

With two cycists abreast, such a driver cannot pass with minimal effort. They can't pass in the same lane nor can they do the minimal pass with just 1/4 of their vehicle in the other lane. They have to do a full lane change to pass. That angers them.
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Old 09-03-19, 07:32 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
As to the myth that cyclists riding two-abreast being either "rude" or "wrong." Stop and think about this. Which is easier for a motorists to pass? Two cyclists riding two-abreast taking up pretty much the same amount of space as any car on the road, or two cyclists who are riding single file, creating an "obstacle" that is twice as long and those takes longer to pass?
A Ford F150 weighs 4,069 to 5,697 lbs. You can not win this battle.

"A 3,000 pound car traveling at 70 MPH has 15.8 million pounds of force to release in a crash." - Google search

You will literally explode if a few million pounds of force tags you.

Good luck with your experiment man.

(BTW...the danger comes from speed differential and not your position on the road)
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Old 10-07-19, 05:57 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by smasha View Post
who do you think taught him how to drive?

for this guy to essentially brag to the cop about what he did, obviously he thinks he's fully justified in doing it. very nice charges

as a (recovering) motorist with half a million miles behind the wheel (without accidents or tickets) i understand that my attitude towards driving came from my dad. i recall a trip, as a kid, out to dinner. we were "stuck" behind a large group of road racers on a training ride. my mom got all uppity and says "what are they doing?!?!?" my dad looked at the speedometer and calmly replied "about 25 mph." very chill. never in a hurry.
Your dad rocks!
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Old 10-11-19, 07:19 AM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
A Ford F150 weighs 4,069 to 5,697 lbs. You can not win this battle.

"A 3,000 pound car traveling at 70 MPH has 15.8 million pounds of force to release in a crash." - Google search

You will literally explode if a few million pounds of force tags you.

Good luck with your experiment man.

(BTW...the danger comes from speed differential and not your position on the road)
Good luck arguing with an 8 year old post.
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Old 10-16-19, 06:48 AM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
A Ford F150 weighs 4,069 to 5,697 lbs. You can not win this battle.

"A 3,000 pound car traveling at 70 MPH has 15.8 million pounds of force to release in a crash." - Google search

You will literally explode if a few million pounds of force tags you.

Good luck with your experiment man.

(BTW...the danger comes from speed differential and not your position on the road)
Captain Obvious loosed another no-value non-sequitur.
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Old 10-18-19, 07:25 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Good luck arguing with an 8 year old post.
Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
Captain Obvious loosed another no-value non-sequitur.
And still two people respond anyway.
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Old 10-18-19, 07:51 PM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
And still two people respond anyway.
Troll's victory cry.
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