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Cyclist Rear Ended at 55mph

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Cyclist Rear Ended at 55mph

Old 09-07-19, 11:05 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
My point of the lawnchair was to illustrate speed differential between a cyclist and a motor vehicle on a high speed roadway. The bike is basically stopped as compared to a car moving at 55-70 mph. So in fact we ARE sitting in a lawn chair on the roadway, even if not riding a recumbent.

Also, a rear-view mirror is a lot more useful than a rear facing camera, although not nearly as illustrative after the fact. I doubt that car would have hit me. I would have bailed with about 2 seconds to spare. Been there, done that.
I agree with your intent, and in practice. Do you regularly dodge traffic when you're not an impediment to travel? With four lanes and light traffic, they can just as easily pass you. I think we all agree that this is a case of poor positioning, though we disagree how.
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Old 09-07-19, 11:27 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
My point of the lawnchair was to illustrate speed differential between a cyclist and a motor vehicle on a high speed roadway. The bike is basically stopped as compared to a car moving at 55-70 mph. So in fact we ARE sitting in a lawn chair on the roadway, even if not riding a recumbent….
Originally Posted by Unca_Sam View Post
I agree with your intent, and in practice. Do you regularly dodge traffic when you're not an impediment to travel? With four lanes and light traffic, they can just as easily pass you.

I think we all agree that this is a case of poor positioning, though we disagree how.
Do you mean poor positioning by the driver or the cyclist?
Originally Posted by Unca_Sam View Post
… This accident was avoidable. The overtaking driver's responsibility was to not hit anything in front of them. End of Story.

The rider chose his line for his own reasons, flats, upcoming turns, whatever. The rider has a right to use the road and not get killed or maimed as a result.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
Not to take sides, but the subject of position on the road is hotly debated..
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
In the “cycling community” there are two schools of thought about riding in traffic:As Far Right as Possible: close to the curb; or Take the Lane to be out there and visible to cars. Bike lanes encourage the former behavior, likely more tolerated by motorists.

Bike lanes are not that wide, but then cyclist is in the “door zone” in danger of opening doors from parked cars.
Originally Posted by Lemond1985 View Post
Nah, just ride on the shoulder instead of out in traffic.

Of course it helps to monitor cars approaching from behind on roads like this, no matter where you ride. But as a motorist, I would definitely not be expecting someone to be to the left of the rumble strip on a road with this wide of a shoulder. What was the bike rider thinking?...
Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
I'd be riding on the shoulder instead of the fog line.
Originally Posted by JW Fas View Post
It's not the clearest picture with the 720p video, but you can make out the rumble strips. The rest of the asphalt doesn't look the smoothest or cleanest either, so I can see why the cyclist chose the traffic lane.
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Old 09-07-19, 12:18 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
Do you mean poor positioning by the driver or the cyclist?
You're right, I'm second-guessing the cyclist.
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Old 09-07-19, 12:27 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam View Post
I agree with your intent, and in practice. Do you regularly dodge traffic when you're not an impediment to travel? With four lanes and light traffic, they can just as easily pass you. I think we all agree that this is a case of poor positioning, though we disagree how.
I didn't see any issue with the cyclist position assuming the shoulder was dirty, rough, or full of rumble strips (I have no idea). I ride on a highway like that (LINK) occasionally myself. On a "road bike" with 2" rubber (Long Haul Trucker with dropped bars) that I can easily hop the rumble strip anytime a line of cars catch up. How do I know? I keep an eye on my mirror. If the shoulder is clean, I ride there. If not, I ride the fog line until cars close in on me then hop over to the shoulder until I get another gap. Same on a 700Cx23 but less comfortable and more risk of a puncture. Better than getting blown up.

I used to bike that same road way back when it had no shoulder. I would bike from LSU at Baton Rouge to NOLA (80 miles) on it early Sunday morning with very light traffic. Still, hillbillies would buzz me on purpose. That is all part of the program. Until you get tired of it, then you have to figure out something else.
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Old 09-07-19, 12:37 PM
  #80  
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Having been hit from behind by a vehicle not so far in the distant past that video brings back some unpleasant memories for me. Luckily the car was only going about half the speed.

For those of you who think that you could have avoided such as situation if you were monitoring the rearward traffic using a mirror, I highly doubt that. I was wearing a mirror at the time that I was hit. I saw the car coming up from behind me, but like every other car that has passed me in all of my riding up to that point, I expected it to move over. Sometimes they move over early. Sometimes they move over later. But they always move...until they don't. And by the time you realize it it's too late to react. You can't swerve to the right every time a car is about to pass you either. That's no way to ride a bike. A mirror helps you in other ways, so I continue to use it.

We trust that cars are going to move over to pass us, and almost all of the time they do. If this makes you uncomfortable, then you have to find ways to avoid being in that situation in the first place.

I've changed my riding habits since then. I'll take MUPs and trails, or even sidewalks, to minimize the interactions with cars on questionable roads.
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Old 09-07-19, 05:10 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by mcours2006 View Post
For those of you who think that you could have avoided such as situation if you were monitoring the rearward traffic using a mirror, I highly doubt that. I was wearing a mirror at the time that I was hit. I saw the car coming up from behind me, but like every other car that has passed me in all of my riding up to that point, I expected it to move over. Sometimes they move over early. Sometimes they move over later. But they always move...until they don't. And by the time you realize it it's too late to react. You can't swerve to the right every time a car is about to pass you either. That's no way to ride a bike. A mirror helps you in other ways, so I continue to use it.
This is a fair point, especially in this case. The problem is the car moved from a "safe" passing line in the lane, to the shoulder edge exactly where the cyclist was at exactly the wrong time... in like 1 second. I agree this one would have been difficult to avoid. And rare. Even so, I still want to be able to see it in my mirror as it is developing so I can increase my chances of avoiding it.
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Old 09-07-19, 06:00 PM
  #82  
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I mean I don't get it really. Elon Musk's car is autonomously avoiding such crashes. This technology exists. And I assume it is not really that expensive. At least in the United States. It shouldn't be that hard to implement some kind of law to prevent cars without that technology to go into traffic. Think about the number of lives that can be saved just by this sole technology. Especially children.
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Old 09-07-19, 06:26 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
This is a fair point, especially in this case. The problem is the car moved from a "safe" passing line in the lane, to the shoulder edge exactly where the cyclist was at exactly the wrong time... in like 1 second. I agree this one would have been difficult to avoid. And rare. Even so, I still want to be able to see it in my mirror as it is developing so I can increase my chances of avoiding it.
A car should never pass you in your lane. Anything else is reckless and should be penalized as such.

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Old 09-07-19, 06:50 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam View Post
A car should never pass you in your lane. Anything elseis reckless and should be penalized as such.
A lot of things should not happen, and yet they do all the time. Relying on what drivers should and shouldn't do for your safety is just foolishly naive.
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Old 09-07-19, 07:59 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Newspaper_Nick View Post
I mean I don't get it really. Elon Musk's car is autonomously avoiding such crashes. This technology exists. And I assume it is not really that expensive. At least in the United States. It shouldn't be that hard to implement some kind of law to prevent cars without that technology to go into traffic. Think about the number of lives that can be saved just by this sole technology. Especially children.
Correct, you do not get it at all.
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Old 09-07-19, 08:03 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam View Post
A car should never pass you in your lane. Anything else is reckless and should be penalized as such.
Is a cyclist at the edge of the fog line really "in" the lane? As long as both cyclist and driver stay on their side of the line nothing bad will happen. Even so, I agree it would be prudent for a motorist to move left and/or slow down anyway. I know I would.

Originally Posted by mcours2006 View Post
A lot of things should not happen, and yet they do all the time. Relying on what drivers should and shouldn't do for your safety is just foolishly naive.
Right. Obviously the motorist was fully at fault. But so what? It's all about doing what we can to take full responsibility for our own safety and avoid being whacked.
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Old 09-07-19, 10:15 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by MaxKatt View Post
Should have been right of rumble strip.
I was also thinking that. But while a rumble strip will get their attention. Only a 10-ton concrete barrier. Will stop them from going completely over the rumble strip. Of course a 10-ton concrete barrier. Wouldn't be feasible on the road.
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Old 09-07-19, 10:33 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
Is a cyclist at the edge of the fog line really "in" the lane? As long as both cyclist and driver stay on their side of the line nothing bad will happen. Even so, I agree it would be prudent for a motorist to move left and/or slow down anyway. I know I would.



Right. Obviously the motorist was fully at fault. But so what? It's all about doing what we can to take full responsibility for our own safety and avoid being whacked.
The cyclist was "in the lane". I don't think the driver was attempting a close pass. I think the driver never 'saw' the cyclist.

Defensive driving theory in a car, in this situation, advises you to make sure your back is fully supported by your seat to be ready for the impact. I know we don't have that luxury on a bike, but you have to trust that a following driver sees you and is leaving adequate space. The question here is how does one guarantee recognition and consideration from other road users?

One group says that you simply can't share this road, it's always dangerous. One group says that maximizing your visibility by being where overtaking traffic has to notice you and follow your lead makes you the safest. Neither can account for a distracted/impaired driver, though that driver is very likely to hit anything in front of them.

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Old 09-07-19, 11:06 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by JW Fas View Post
Seriously, why is it an unreasonable expectation that one be required to retest on the road every 5-10 years?
I've been thinking this for years as a defensive driver. I'm sure we've all picked up bad habits since we were gun shy student drivers. Maybe it doesn't have to involve a 10 minute test, but a random requirement to submit to temporary installation of a dashcam for a limited time span. Long enough to forget it's being recorded. Could software review the video and spit out a score so a human doesn't have to watch in real time?


Who am I kidding?! We can't afford that! Oh well, guess there's no answer to this problem.

Edit: I regret my part in shifting the discussion from your initial point. You saw that this collision with this driver was a result of inattentive driving and proposed something as a potential solution. I'd propose, in addition, that instances of distracted driving should have penalties as severe as dui/ovi. If you're as likely to cause a collision or damage property, and you are if you're distracted, it's the same as choosing to operate while impaired. It doesn't change that this driver displays no awareness of the cyclist.

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Old 09-08-19, 12:48 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam View Post
I've been thinking this for years as a defensive driver. I'm sure we've all picked up bad habits since we were gun shy student drivers. Maybe it doesn't have to involve a 10 minute test, but a random requirement to submit to temporary installation of a dashcam for a limited time span. Long enough to forget it's being recorded. Could software review the video and spit out a score so a human doesn't have to watch in real time?
You are way overthinking this. And you are forgetting that this is the United States of America. Land of the FREE. I get it. That video would upset a Three Toed Sloth. But posting under the influence of adrenaline is not pretty. Take a Valium and watch some kitten videos on YouTube. Re-testing drivers every how many years? Why? What relationship does a DMV Road Test Facility have to real world driving? Forced dashcam use for as long as it takes to forget its there? Would you forget it's there? Anyway, it's never gonna happen. The ACLU would be all over whoever tried to institute such a thing. More people die every hour from *** violence, accidental or otherwise, and despite MASSIVE public outcry for DECADES there has been zero political will to do anything substantive. Now tell me again why because a spectacularly disturbing incident unlikely to be repeated in quite the same way this year should require the introduction of AI technologies and socially invasive measures to correct? Where are the updates on this story? did the driver stop? If yes, interrogate them. Find out what happened. Subpoena their phone records. Determine whether or not that might have contributed. If they fled, FIND THEM. It must be possible. It wouldn't take many drivers facing real consequences for screwing up badly on the road to scare everyone else straight. That's all the technology it would take. The already robust Mainstream Media news cycle information technology infrastructure reporting on the captures, trials and sentencing of road scofflaws serious and petty. We can afford that. We already do. Now lets put them to work doing something more useful that telling us who will next drop out of the Democratic line-up for the 2020 election.

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Old 09-08-19, 12:48 AM
  #91  
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perhaps if the curriculum were not a list of rules to follow but instead a list of penalties for breaking them
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Old 09-08-19, 12:55 AM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam View Post
The cyclist was "in the lane". I don't think the driver was attempting a close pass. I think the driver never 'saw' the cyclist.
It is a stretch to say that that cyclist was 'in the lane'. They weren't even in the RH tire track. That driver absolutely was attempting a close pass and it went VERY badly on them (and on the cyclist!). Do you routinely drive at 55mph 4" from the fog stripe? Why are we speculating? What does the driver say? We should know.
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Old 09-08-19, 01:02 AM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Chris0516 View Post
I was also thinking that. But while a rumble strip will get their attention. Only a 10-ton concrete barrier. Will stop them from going completely over the rumble strip. Of course a 10-ton concrete barrier. Wouldn't be feasible on the road.
The rumble strip isn't there to keep them from hitting cyclists riding on the gravel shoulder. It is to warn a driver that they are about to drop from the pavement at speed and possibly lose control. A buzz to the wise is sufficient. But if they choose not to heed the warning that's on them. Odds are they won't hit anything more important than a rattlesnake even if they roll over completely.
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Old 09-08-19, 03:43 AM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Correct, you do not get it at all.
Would you be kind enough to explain to me what i do not get?
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Old 09-08-19, 03:57 AM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
...Also, a rear-view mirror is a lot more useful than a rear facing camera, although not nearly as illustrative after the fact. I doubt that car would have hit me.

I would have bailed with about 2 seconds to spare. Been there, done that.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
Perhaps, @JoeyBike
Originally Posted by mcours2006 View Post
Having been hit from behind by a vehicle not so far in the distant past that video brings back some unpleasant memories for me. Luckily the car was only going about half the speed.

For those of you who think that you could have avoided such as situation if you were monitoring the rearward traffic using a mirror, I highly doubt that. I was wearing a mirror at the time that I was hit. I saw the car coming up from behind me, but like every other car that has passed me in all of my riding up to that point, I expected it to move over.

Sometimes they move over early. Sometimes they move over later. But they always move...until they don't. And by the time you realize it it's too late to react. You can't swerve to the right every time a car is about to pass you either. That's no way to ride a bike. A mirror helps you in other ways, so I continue to use it.

We trust that cars are going to move over to pass us, and almost all of the time they do. If this makes you uncomfortable, then you have to find ways to avoid being in that situation in the first place.

I've changed my riding habits since then. I'll take MUPs and trails, or even sidewalks, to minimize the interactions with cars on questionable roads.
I have posted earlier on this thread:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
When I was hit from behind, it was on a wide, low-volume, well-lit residential road at about 9 PM in June, by a “distracted driver.” The route was so calm that I was not closely monitoring my rearward view. In fact, though perhaps I could have ditched the bike,

I’m glad I didn’t see it coming if I was going to get hit anyways.

I once read a comment that one should practice doing "bunny hops" so at least you could jump a curb if present on your right.

Obviously that’s the ultimate use of a mirror, and now I monitor rearwards more frequently. So hopefully being aware of the situation behind, even when not in immediate danger, allows the rider to avoid a dangerous situation, even by pulling off the road. And other than my accident, I’ve never had the need to bail out.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
Thanks to @JW Fas for posting this video. I have posted about learning safety either by experience or vicariously, and this is the best training video I have seen about “bailing out.”

I’m an ardent mirror advocate. Many naysayers disparage the use of the mirror for the rare event as depicted above, just to avoid a rear end collision. IMO a mirror is more frequently used, and more valuable to monitor and anticipate road hazards:

So as a bailout training video, I have to consider how I would react to a quickly upcomimg car, and make the decision to bail, especially with an inhospitable shoulder.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
At what point do you realize that the upcoming car ain't gonna swerve out of your line of travel?

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 09-08-19 at 05:29 AM.
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Old 09-08-19, 05:42 AM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
This is a fair point, especially in this case. The problem is the car moved from a "safe" passing line in the lane, to the shoulder edge exactly where the cyclist was at exactly the wrong time... in like 1 second. I agree this one would have been difficult to avoid. And rare. Even so, I still want to be able to see it in my mirror as it is developing so I can increase my chances of avoiding it.
Around here, only interstate highways have travel lanes wide enough to pass a bike with three feet without changing lanes. With four lanes of travel, it's my lane, and you're welcome to go around. Keeping too close to the right invites this behavior and its results.
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Old 09-08-19, 05:54 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
You are way overthinking this. Re-testing drivers every how many years? Why?
We can start with every four years, when you go to renew your license. Why? Because every three years more Americans die on our roads and highways than in every armed conflict the US has fought in.

Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Forced dashcam use for as long as it takes to forget its there? Would you forget it's there? Anyway, it's never gonna happen. The ACLU would be all over whoever tried to institute such a thing.
Unless it's discriminatory, I doubt the ACLU would be interested. This is also quitting before you start. Nothing changes until you try.

Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
More people die every hour from *** violence, accidental or otherwise, and despite MASSIVE public outcry for DECADES there has been zero political will to do anything substantive.
Driving licenses and firearm ownership get conflated frequently, though only one is an embedded right enshrined in the constitution. It's still easier to own and use a firearm than it is to get a driver's license.

Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Now tell me again why because a spectacularly disturbing incident unlikely to be repeated in quite the same way this year should require the introduction of AI technologies and socially invasive measures to correct?
It already has.

Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
It wouldn't take many drivers facing real consequences for screwing up badly on the road to scare everyone else straight. That's all the technology it would take.
The death penalty is thought to be a deterrent against heinous crimes, though states with a death penalty have no reduction in capital crimes. Enforcement and punishment is not a substitute for prevention.

Last edited by Unca_Sam; 09-08-19 at 06:00 AM.
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Old 09-08-19, 06:48 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by JW Fas View Post
It's not the clearest picture with the 720p video, but you can make out the rumble strips. The rest of the asphalt doesn't look the smoothest or cleanest either, so I can see why the cyclist chose the traffic lane.
55 MPH road, with that much shoulder... I think I too would be on the shoulder... and this whole situation illustrates why. Too many motorists are not paying attention.

Yeah, so your super narrow, super high pressure "racing bike tire" isn't gonna do well on a rough shoulder... YOU are not gonna do well when an idiot driver comes along... and they do.
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Old 09-08-19, 09:20 AM
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This thread reminded me of the movie Emperor of the North with Lee Marvin, Ernest Borgnine and Keith Caradine.

If cyclists could drag around something that would bounce around, cars would keep a safe distance or get body damage. The sound of something banging under them would make them slow down.
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Old 09-08-19, 11:08 AM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by Newspaper_Nick View Post
I mean I don't get it really. Elon Musk's car is autonomously avoiding such crashes. This technology exists. And I assume it is not really that expensive. At least in the United States. It shouldn't be that hard to implement some kind of law to prevent cars without that technology to go into traffic. Think about the number of lives that can be saved just by this sole technology. Especially children.
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Correct, you do not get it at all.
Originally Posted by Newspaper_Nick View Post
Would you be kind enough to explain to me what i do not get?
What makes you think "Elon Musk's car" is autonomously avoiding such crashes? Because Elon Musk said so?

What makes you think that technology exists for cars to always avoid colliding with non-stationary objects on any and every road that motor vehicles and bicycles are permitted?

Why do you assume it would not really be that expensive to install this fantastic and yet to be developed hardware and software on every motor vehicle in the United States ? What is your definition of expensive? How much do you currently spend on your motor vehicles and how much more are you willing to spend on a a so-called "Elon Musk car" based on an empty promise to allegedly "save the children"?

What makes you think it shouldn't be that hard to implement some kind of law to prevent cars without that technology to go into traffic? Who is going to "implement" such a law?

"Think about it" indeed rather than just whatever pipe dream comes to mind about the number of lives that can be saved just by this "sole technology" that exists in your daydreams.
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