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Are Shimano parts that come straight from China genuine?

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Are Shimano parts that come straight from China genuine?

Old 08-24-20, 09:39 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by veganbikes View Post
Most fakes are not made by the same workers in the same factories by some magical third shift or they "just fell off the back of the truck" It is a common myth that we love because we can continue supporting the fakes and feel good about it. I would rather support the real thing so I know I can get all the warranties and support from the actual manufacturer.

If something is too good to be true, it most likely is.
I am a practitioner of using long lasting components instead of cheap consumable components for cycling. But even I can see that if a $25 fd or a $40 rd breaks, many will just toss it and buy another. I would do the same, actually. If inpwned a Tiagra 4700 fd and it broke, I am not working to replace it thru warranty, ill just spend $25 and buy another. I mention Tiagra since that's the level the OP cited.

Are Tiagra FDs really being faked too? That profit margin has to be so small, given the cost to create the tooling and small sales volumes.
Seems like an odd tier level to fake.

In the end though, its ebay and you can get money back if its fake with paypal, even if it came from China. Show its fake and get a refund. Hardly a big risk.
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Old 08-24-20, 09:46 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
Do you live in these Asian markets: Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia?
Do you ride with a lot of people in these markets who have their new Shimano part just break like cookies?
Do you know the LBS in these places will sell Shimano parts "in bulk", when Shimano doesn't do that, regardless of market.
I live and ride there part time, I know a lot of clubs there, in all these countries, and I know some of their domestic pros, I know the cycling scene in Asia. I'm guessing you're in the US? There are a lot more fakes there than what you're accustomed to seeing int he US or on Aliexpress.
All I can speak to is my experience. The Shimano components I've bought on ebay and sent from China have all performed flawlessly. They came with all the little printed sticky tags, boxing, and instructions I would expect.
If its all fake, its an impressive amount of work and the QC has been perfect.

If anything bought on ebay using PayPal is fake, a refund can be issued. So if the OP orders the pedals and they say Shinnano, the bearings are grindy, or the spindles are plastic then a refund can be requested. Its quite simple.
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Old 08-25-20, 05:10 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Campagnolo built a factory in Romania to make the lower tier groups.. 'affordable'..
I think some Campagnolo stuff is made in Taiwan as well.
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Old 08-25-20, 09:01 AM
  #29  
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Rebadging is a fact of business, as is seeking lowest cost supplier that meets your needs.
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Old 08-25-20, 12:00 PM
  #30  
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I worked in contract manufacturing years ago (metal stamping) and typically the contracting company pays for and owns the tooling. That way if the contract is up or the manufacturer folds, the tooling returns to the owner. It also makes the manufacturer have less leverage over price as the part can just be made elsewhere. I'm not sure if this process is the same in China but I have a hard time believing Shimano would allow a factory to own the dies and tooling to make Shimano parts and then keep them when the contract finishes.
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Old 08-25-20, 02:49 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by bluehills3149 View Post
I worked in contract manufacturing years ago (metal stamping) and typically the contracting company pays for and owns the tooling. That way if the contract is up or the manufacturer folds, the tooling returns to the owner. It also makes the manufacturer have less leverage over price as the part can just be made elsewhere. I'm not sure if this process is the same in China but I have a hard time believing Shimano would allow a factory to own the dies and tooling to make Shimano parts and then keep them when the contract finishes.
That is most likely still true. I know with carbon molds, they are owned by the companies (unless it is an open mold). However, I would not doubt it if the molds were copied...
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Old 08-26-20, 07:21 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Err, No. I'm not saying that "fakes" come out of the same factory as the real thing in order to make you feel good about buying them.
Often these "fakes" are seconds. The name "brand" want's them to be destroyed yet there is a strong culture in China and Asia to not waste things. So they get sold in an unauthorised manner.
Also a HUGE source of "fakes" is when the Name Brand changes contract manufacturers. The contract manufacturer is supposed to cease and desist from making the items anymore but they don't. They keep on making the same item which is now a "fake". The quality of these items will definitely slip though as they aim to make them cheaper and cheaper.

The costs involved in creating a "fake" from scratch are HUGE and completely incompatible with the whole modus operandi of making and selling "fakes".
Not really seconds, there might be some seconds out there but for the most part not seconds. Sure plenty of cheaper manufacturers building similar looking products but not of any quality.
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Old 08-26-20, 07:32 PM
  #33  
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Most, not all, but most fakes the quality is NOT fine, good luck in determining which has good quality and which ones do not. Also the fakes, even if sold as real, you'll discover after a problem is that the warranty is no good. So you have to make sure you are dealing with a factory authorized retailer for the product you're buying...or you can take your chanes and gamble a few dollars.
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Old 08-27-20, 03:52 PM
  #34  
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If it is from China then likely a fake, hell these guys even make fake toothpaste.
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Old 07-30-21, 12:17 PM
  #35  
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Latest scam is "ÜS Shipping". Also seen scam in UK. so Origin not useful
Just burned with very poorly done "Shimano Acera M390" COUNTERFEIT shipped from US
Technically a FRAUD as if Ebay GAF
In my day the counterfeiters at least put the right president on the bill.
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Old 07-30-21, 01:11 PM
  #36  
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I'd look at it this way. Where do I ride? How fast do I ride? Is traffic heavy? What happens is a cheap China sourced pedal/critical component breaks?

Cheers
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Old 07-30-21, 01:28 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by bikebikebike View Post
Latest scam is "ÜS Shipping". Also seen scam in UK. so Origin not useful
Just burned with very poorly done "Shimano Acera M390" COUNTERFEIT shipped from US
Technically a FRAUD as if Ebay GAF
In my day the counterfeiters at least put the right president on tlhe bill.
I'm not convinced that Acera M390 from Shimano is good quality. Could you tell the difference?

I have encountered Chinese companies who apparently have a US redistributor. A bit of a pain if one is expecting a quick turnaround.

I agree with @Phil_gretz that "cloning" depends a bit on the cost of doing so, and expected benefits. So, a plastic part that one can simply mold... sure a lot of clones. A complex aluminum and steel part, less likely to be cloned.
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Old 07-30-21, 02:46 PM
  #38  
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Got my GRX groupset from an Ebay seller in Taiwan. I believe it's real, as the fit and finish on something like that would be extremely difficult to replicate. I assume that they have real distribution channels that don't all go through U.S. retailers, and they have inventory available, whereas inventory is scarce in the U.S..

That's not saying that there aren't fakes... no doubt there are. It's probably somewhat risky. I wouldn't buy from an Ebay seller in another country without a very high feedback rating. I'm relying on others to knock the rating down if they received obvious fakes. Maybe the rating system can be gamed, but perhaps not as much as Amazon reviews.
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Old 07-30-21, 03:04 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by WGB View Post
I purchased a set of SPD cleats from a seller in China. They were roughly 4/5 the size of real ones, and no they don't fit any pedals though they look great.

I buy bar tape and cables with no issues but since Shimano has no Chinese assembly lines that I know of (can't speak for other brands) as far as I can see the seller would have to be selling stuff that was imported to China so exceptional low prices set warning bells off. Return shipping to there is very high.
SHIMANO (KUNSHAN) BICYCLE COMPONENTS CO., LTD. SHIMANO (KUNSHAN) BICYCLE COMPONENTS CO., LTD. Shimano (Kunshan) Bicycle Components Co., Ltd. was established in Kunshan city in 1992. It is the first Shimano factory in China. We mainly produce bicycle parts. Our goal is to offer customers our “Captivating Products”.
SHIMANO (KUNSHAN) BICYCLE COMPONENTS CO., LTD. | SHIMANO

www.shimano.com/en/company/locations/skc_en.html

Also ... https://www.shimano.com/en/company/locations.html
SHIMANO (TIANJIN) BICYCLE COMPONENTS CO., LTD.
172 Xijiu Road, Airport Economic Area, Tianjin 300308 China
Phone: +86-22-24890055 / Fax: +86-22-24890141

SHIMANO (KUNSHAN) BICYCLE COMPONENTS CO., LTD.
No. 6, Dong Ting Hu South Road, Kunshan, Jiangsu, China 215335
Phone: +86-512-57310666 / Fax: +86-512-57311641

So .... at least two factories producing exclusively bicycle parts and they've been doing it for 30 years.

Well, that's how I read it.
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Old 07-30-21, 03:33 PM
  #40  
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Also .... As I understand it, communist China produces a huge number of capable engineers. They can reverse-engineer a part, buy the materials hire small businesses to do the casting and machining, the same way people do it anywhere else, but a lot more cheaply because there is a lot more small industry---very flexible---because there is such a huge volume of knock-offs of Everything coming out of China. People right out of school sign on with a newish small company producing a limited run of knock-offs, then take the experience and start their own small companies, constantly closing and switching products to find whatever is hot or cheap and sells steadily or can be faked for max profit---which can mean minimal investment, or might be complicated products with higher price tags (Chinarello, anyone?)

Unskilled labor is cheap, materials are cheap, technically skilled workers are cheap, manufacturing is cheap .... and government oversight is nil, start-up costs involve no filings or regulations, ... the main issue is probably finding out who needs to be bribed how much to make sure stuff actually gets done.

So sure ... some guy with an engineering degree goes to some factory making knock-offs, spends six months reverse-engineering some products and figuring out how to fake them---then takes his paychecks and takes apart a Shimano pedal, measures it up, figures out the production steps, gets some of his co-workers on board, goes to the same factories he is already working in, makes some back-door deals, gets some stuff produced, dumps it on Alibaba, and if it sells, he and his friends start a company and start cloning bike parts .....

In communist China, that's just the way it's done, as far as I know. It is easier to work as a slave for a knock-off start-up for a year and then start your own---rinse and repeat---than to find any kind of decent job ....

People either don't know or have forgotten that a huge amount of the infantry weapons which Japan used in WWII were made in small batches in small shops, not by huge armament factories. We are used to US-style scale, but casting and milling isn't all that complicated .... and today, anyone can get a few CNC machines and make really precise parts from castings, and castings .... well, people have been casting metal for 5000 years or so. And nowadays with a 3-D printer, making a positive for making a mold is literally automatic---scan a real Shimano part, plug in the data, and collect the blank in the morning. Pack it in sand, add the casting channels for a tray of them, or more likely, just bring the 3D-printed part to a small metal casting shop and make your deal and pick up the parts later. Then you have low-pay workers run them through the CNC machines---preset, no skill needed.

Then order some cheap boxes, have them printed to look like Shimano boxes, have some stickers printed .... hire a couple min-wage guys (tons of them around, farmers' sons who fled the hinterland) and have them do the labeling and packing. use a free computer program to process orders and print labels ... and forget about returns and customer service, because if you get a lot of complaints, you just change the name of the business and start making something else .... or just sell the same stuff under a different vendor name on the same outlets. Pay some yuan for fake customer reviews to get your stars and ratings .... back in business.

It is about the same level of complexity as buying a couple lawnmowers, throwing them in your beat-up old pick-up, and starting an under-the-table lawn-mowing business here in the states.
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Old 07-30-21, 04:04 PM
  #41  
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There were notes a while ago about parts that appeared intentionally misspelled to cause confusion. So, make sure your Shimano parts are spelled "SHIMANO".
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Old 07-30-21, 04:23 PM
  #42  
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There is a lot more to this. I have ordered numerous components from AliExpress especially during the latest supply channel problems here in the West. Disc brake pads, XTR Disc rotor, 140mm to 160mm Disc adapter, GRX 810 Crankset, pedal cleats, GRX 810 rear derailleur just to list most recent orders. I have originals to compare to and all were authentic. Thing to note, all were OEM parts not in retail packaging.

I also purchased a custom painted Carbonda Gravel frame and the quality as well as the purchase experience was excellent.

The bigger question that I have raised before is why are the Chinese still able to source parts when the rest of the world has major supply issues? Forget the reduced cost and highly subsidized shipping the fact is the only place to get many of these parts and supplies is China.
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Old 07-30-21, 06:18 PM
  #43  
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I think most of the production is extra batch capacity beyond the production order quantities. So if your optimal production is 100, and your client (shimano) makes an order for 90, you produce 100 and sell the other 10. There is no way they can enforce intelectual property, quality assurance and stuff like that. This also bring down the cost.
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Old 07-30-21, 07:25 PM
  #44  
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What we call "corruption," communist China calls "business."

Stuff like bribes, thievery, fake cost overruns, quadruple-entry book-keeping .... "misplaced" items ... are the norm.

I am not being critical of the culture (I Am critical---casual dishonesty is a disease) but since that is just the way they do things and has been since probably before communism, there is no point is complaining.

I am sure Shimano isn't going to say much if a bunch of Shimano parts hit the market, but Not Shimano parts ordered by Shimano .... and I doubt they complain when six percent of every order "disappears," just as I am sure they have an allowance for bribes hidden in their budgets (they won't admit to paying bribes, but they also won't be able to do business if they don't spread some cash around. )

So yes, I am unsurprised that Chinese vendors have access to Shimano parts ... Shimano would rather lose a little than have the factory find another patron.

IMO.
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Old 07-30-21, 10:44 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
What we call "corruption," communist China calls "business."

Stuff like bribes, thievery, fake cost overruns, quadruple-entry book-keeping .... "misplaced" items ... are the norm.

I am not being critical of the culture (I Am critical---casual dishonesty is a disease) but since that is just the way they do things and has been since probably before communism, there is no point is complaining.

I am sure Shimano isn't going to say much if a bunch of Shimano parts hit the market, but Not Shimano parts ordered by Shimano .... and I doubt they complain when six percent of every order "disappears," just as I am sure they have an allowance for bribes hidden in their budgets (they won't admit to paying bribes, but they also won't be able to do business if they don't spread some cash around. )

So yes, I am unsurprised that Chinese vendors have access to Shimano parts ... Shimano would rather lose a little than have the factory find another patron.

IMO.
The west is as corrupt as any place on earth. It just happens at a different level.
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Old 07-31-21, 02:06 AM
  #46  
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11 December 2001 was a day of infamy. The damage done around the world, except in China, is just incredible.
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Old 07-31-21, 07:00 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by spelger View Post

one of my friends once asked then answered his own question and it has stuck with me ever since..."what do you get from a junk yard...junk."
I guess your friend never really went to a junk yard or worked on cars. I would in many cases prefer getting a used OEM part from a junk yard rather than an aftermarket part from China...
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Old 07-31-21, 07:01 AM
  #48  
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You can tell they're fake if they're labeled "Sihmano."
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Old 07-31-21, 09:04 AM
  #49  
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Is there any way to prove they're bonafide?

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Old 07-31-21, 09:30 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by SpecK View Post
I guess your friend never really went to a junk yard or worked on cars. I would in many cases prefer getting a used OEM part from a junk yard rather than an aftermarket part from China...
sure, whatever. buying junk from china was not even an option back then. today "junk from a junk yard" is more a figure of speech for me now.
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