Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Steel bike failure. Is this manufacturing or something else?

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Steel bike failure. Is this manufacturing or something else?

Old 04-15-20, 09:31 AM
  #126  
livedarklions
High Performance Noodler
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 12,371

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6459 Post(s)
Liked 6,114 Times in 3,458 Posts
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Im from Missouri, show me.
-mr. bill
--------------------------------
Don't blame me, I'm from Massachusetts.
Is "selective state syndrome" a thing?

MO="You're accountable to me"
MA="I'm not accountable"


PS--I'm not serious, it's just a funny juxtaposition, and I like using the word juxtaposition.

Juxtaposition--YAY!
livedarklions is offline  
Likes For livedarklions:
Old 06-01-20, 03:09 PM
  #127  
CycleNutz
Junior Member
 
CycleNutz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 21

Bikes: Road

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Any updates on whether this is going to trial?
CycleNutz is offline  
Old 06-01-20, 03:45 PM
  #128  
Oneder
Banned.
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 822

Bikes: Wahoo of Theseus, others

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 428 Post(s)
Liked 67 Times in 46 Posts
My guess is defective tube plus some previous damage.
Oneder is offline  
Old 06-03-20, 09:41 AM
  #129  
WizardOfBoz
Generally bewildered
 
WizardOfBoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 2,901

Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 6.9, 1999 LeMond Zurich, 1978 Schwinn Superior

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1077 Post(s)
Liked 275 Times in 205 Posts
Originally Posted by bakerjw View Post
To me, it looks like brittle welds as a result of improper set up and temperature control.

My project car is a Jaguar E-Type which has a complex front frame that is brazed together. Anyone who knows anything about these frames knows that they can only be properly repaired by someone very knowledgeable about temperature control and brazing the specific alloy. People have repaired them without proper temperature control and have ended up having catastrophic failures.
I agree. The failures appear way too clean, brittle failure, little deformation. Even if this was initiated by a pothole or hitting a curb, the frame should bend, not break in brittle fashion. Downtube could have acquired deformation before, during or after (as in the bike flying into the fence) the incident. There's no way that this was not the fault of poor manufacturing, temp control, etc. At least in part.

Upshot: Brittle failure in the heat affected zone should not happen on a properly welded bike. If I were the guy's attorney, I'd have the tubes tested for proper alloy using x-ray fluorescence, and I'd have the HAZ tested for hardness, and the other welds for susceptibility to brittle failure.
WizardOfBoz is offline  
Likes For WizardOfBoz:
Old 06-03-20, 01:57 PM
  #130  
dabac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,665
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1068 Post(s)
Liked 278 Times in 206 Posts
I find it unusual how clean the breaks are.
I have seen a fair amount of failed aluminium frames, and even among those Id struggle to find such clean fracture lines.
And this was a steel frame, which - to me - make the appearence of the breaks even more intriguing.
Sure, Ive seen cracks in steel too.
And in steel welds. But they often veer off.
Only times Ive seen cracks track that true has been associated with fatigue failure.
And the age of the bicycle would make that unlikely.
dabac is offline  
Likes For dabac:
Old 06-03-20, 06:02 PM
  #131  
CycleNutz
Junior Member
 
CycleNutz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 21

Bikes: Road

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
I'm curious about whether it is a good idea to buy a Space Horse. Has anyone had any problems with ANY model of All City bikes in a way that was a catastrophic failure like the video described? I know any man made object can have problems. We're all human. But, I just want to know if this is a pervasive issue with this manufacturer.
CycleNutz is offline  
Old 06-05-20, 01:35 PM
  #132  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 22,530
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 2,090 Times in 1,489 Posts
Well, bad information keeps piling up in here. This is a fatigue failure in the exact location where you would expect to see a fatigue failure in a weld. Nothing remarkable about it at all. Sometimes fatigue cracks will propagate out onto a tube, but not always. We don't have good enough information to see where or why it started. Certainly there was a failure in rupture at the end when the crack got big enough that the remaining material couldn't withstand the load.
unterhausen is offline  
Likes For unterhausen:
Old 08-23-20, 05:58 AM
  #133  
mr_bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,449
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2058 Post(s)
Liked 604 Times in 403 Posts
Excerpts of recent events:

On Friday, May 21 Case assigned.
On Wednesday, July 8, defendant filed a motion for partial summary judgement.
On Wednesday, July 21, dismissal of partial summary judgement.
On Monday, August 10 the plaintiff filed a motion to voluntarily dismiss.
On Wednesday, August 12 first pretrial clearance hearing.
On Wednesday, August 19, final pretrial conference date was set to 12/17/2021.
On Thursday, August 20, final judgement.

This sequence of events usually signals a settlement, often confidential, between parties.

Note that Macho Man and Macho Man Flat Bar have been discontinued.

-mr. bill
mr_bill is offline  
Likes For mr_bill:
Old 08-23-20, 12:30 PM
  #134  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 22,530
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 2,090 Times in 1,489 Posts
Interesting that they appear to have settled. I'm a little surprised they didn't settle when they first heard about it. I certainly would not have wanted to be an expert witness for the company.

Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
In the better quality production, they would anneal the whole frame for a period of time after welding. This helps toughen and reduce brittleness in the welded joints. It's possible they forgot to aneal that particular frame
Virtually no steel frames are annealed or heat treated as an assembly. There is no need. Aluminum frames are sometimes heat treated depending on the alloy. Something else went wrong with this frame, probably a welding flaw that we can't see from the poor quality pictures available to us.

I still need to go clean my All City
unterhausen is offline  
Likes For unterhausen:
Old 08-23-20, 02:01 PM
  #135  
sheddle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,437

Bikes: my precious steel boys

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 438 Post(s)
Liked 596 Times in 355 Posts
Originally Posted by CycleNutz View Post
I'm curious about whether it is a good idea to buy a Space Horse. Has anyone had any problems with ANY model of All City bikes in a way that was a catastrophic failure like the video described? I know any man made object can have problems. We're all human. But, I just want to know if this is a pervasive issue with this manufacturer.
I believe the actual manufacturer is Maxway, who make steel frames for a large number of mass-production companies like ACB/Surly/Jamis, not to mention other companies like Ritchey.

Maxway's site doesn't mention ACB but does mention the other major QBP brands of Salsa and Surly, so it's a safe bet they make ACB frames too.

We currently supply to global customers. Many of them are reputed bicycle assemblers, such as Jamis, DMR, Ritchey, Surly, Salsa, Cooper, CRC, MTB cycles, Raleigh.... and so on.

I'm guessing "612" is some kind of own-brand for a custom-ordered crmo profile, or a mix of existing cro-mo tubes. This isn't really unprecedented (see: Raleigh USA branding their general 4130 tubes as "555") It's certainly not some kind of tube brand that ACB makes and welds themselves.


Anyway, this is all to say that this bike was made by an extremely experienced and well-regarded vendor of mass-market steel frames, and any QC failure is likely a highly isolated event. Otherwise we'd be seeing steel frame failures from a dozen vendors all over the place.

Last edited by sheddle; 08-23-20 at 02:16 PM.
sheddle is offline  
Likes For sheddle:
Old 08-23-20, 02:37 PM
  #136  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 26,872
Mentioned: 213 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15643 Post(s)
Liked 3,111 Times in 2,317 Posts
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
Interesting that they appear to have settled. I'm a little surprised they didn't settle when they first heard about it. I certainly would not have wanted to be an expert witness for the company.
I don't think one could expect a quick settlement.

Bike damage + Personal Injury.

The bike company would have wanted to give a crash discount on a new frame. If that didn't work, replace it, or offer replacement cost.

Personal injury could easily throw it into $100K to $1M. Certainly a large enough amount to necessitate getting the fame for inspection, and some back and forth between the lawyers.
CliffordK is online now  
Old 08-23-20, 02:47 PM
  #137  
mr_bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,449
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2058 Post(s)
Liked 604 Times in 403 Posts
Originally Posted by sheddle View Post
I believe the actual manufacturer is Maxway, who make steel frames for a large number of mass-production companies like ACB/Surly/Jamis, not to mention other companies like Ritchey.

Maxway's site doesn't mention ACB but does mention the other major QBP brands of Salsa and Surly, so it's a safe bet they make ACB frames too.
That, and the fact that All City has pictures of the inside of a Maxway factory in a “blog” post on their website.

Originally Posted by sheddle View Post
I'm guessing "612" is some kind of own-brand for a custom-ordered crmo profile, or a mix of existing cro-mo tubes. This isn't really unprecedented (see: Raleigh USA branding their general 4130 tubes as "555") It's certainly not some kind of tube brand that ACB makes and welds themselves.
That, and the fact that All City has a ”blog” post on their website saying exactly that.

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 08-23-20 at 03:11 PM.
mr_bill is offline  
Old 08-24-20, 05:18 AM
  #138  
Pop N Wood
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,163

Bikes: 1982 Bianchi Sport SX, Rayleigh Tamland 1, Rans V-Rex recumbent, Fuji MTB, 80's Cannondale MTB with BBSHD ebike motor

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 552 Post(s)
Liked 434 Times in 287 Posts
Liberty Ships had similar issues

https://offbeatoregon.com/1606c.sche...-ship-396.html
Pop N Wood is offline  
Old 08-24-20, 10:08 AM
  #139  
livedarklions
High Performance Noodler
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 12,371

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6459 Post(s)
Liked 6,114 Times in 3,458 Posts
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
That, and the fact that All City has pictures of the inside of a Maxway factory in a blog post on their website.



That, and the fact that All City has a blog post on their website saying exactly that.

-mr. bill

As mentioned several times above, 612 is the Minneapolis/St. Paul area code. The badge is a Minneapolis bridge.

Love to know the settlement terms.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 08-24-20, 10:34 AM
  #140  
guy153
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 780
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 274 Post(s)
Liked 193 Times in 161 Posts
Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
In the better quality production, they would anneal the whole frame for a period of time after welding. This helps toughen and reduce brittleness in the welded joints. It's possible they forgot to aneal that particular frame
Only with aluminium frames. Nobody anneals steel frames because you would lose the benefit of the cold-working. The welds are not brittle on a steel frame because they are done with a mild steel filler.
guy153 is online now  
Old 08-24-20, 10:46 AM
  #141  
livedarklions
High Performance Noodler
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 12,371

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6459 Post(s)
Liked 6,114 Times in 3,458 Posts


Speaking of Welds on a bicycle, it's Tuesday!
livedarklions is offline  
Likes For livedarklions:
Old 08-24-20, 04:47 PM
  #142  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 22,530
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 2,090 Times in 1,489 Posts
Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
Not really, it had square corners on all the openings. I just recently saw something the U.S. navy put out reminding people not to do this.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 08-24-20, 06:39 PM
  #143  
Pop N Wood
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,163

Bikes: 1982 Bianchi Sport SX, Rayleigh Tamland 1, Rans V-Rex recumbent, Fuji MTB, 80's Cannondale MTB with BBSHD ebike motor

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 552 Post(s)
Liked 434 Times in 287 Posts
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
Not really, it had square corners on all the openings. I just recently saw something the U.S. navy put out reminding people not to do this.
Quite a bit more complicated than that but yes, that was one contributor.

Read the history of the De Havilland Comet airliner some time. Shows it takes some time to get the technology right.
Pop N Wood is offline  
Old 08-25-20, 04:42 AM
  #144  
livedarklions
High Performance Noodler
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 12,371

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6459 Post(s)
Liked 6,114 Times in 3,458 Posts
Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
Quite a bit more complicated than that but yes, that was one contributor.

Read the history of the De Havilland Comet airliner some time. Shows it takes some time to get the technology right.

Fortunately, the windows on my bike are rounded.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 08-26-20, 08:02 PM
  #145  
greatscott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Indiana
Posts: 540

Bikes: 1984 Fuji Club, Suntour ARX; 2013 Lynskey Peloton, mostly 105 with Ultegra rear derailleur, Enve 2.0 fork; 2020 Masi Giramondo 700c, full Deore with TRP dual piston mech disk brakes

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 291 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 56 Posts
Originally Posted by Flip Flop Rider View Post
still don't get how he hit that fence when riding parallel to it, strange
Not strange at all. I witnessed a guy coming at me on a bike path when suddenly his cf handlebar snapped and he veered to the right into a bunch of bushes. he got scratched up up a bit but otherwise ok, had he veered to the left he may have hit me. He told me he had no control, his hands suddenly just dropped, which is what I saw, and into the bushes he went. He claimed he didn't change anything on the bars that required proper torque, so either the bike shop screwed up the torquing or the bike manufacturer did. I never heard the outcome of this event.
greatscott is offline  
Old 08-27-20, 10:24 AM
  #146  
rydabent
Senior Member
 
rydabent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 9,320

Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II

Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2651 Post(s)
Liked 850 Times in 495 Posts
Pondering this further, I would suggest the person that set up the robot welder set in wrong numbers. It could have been a new person, it could have been just a mistake in the setting, or it could have been Mon after a party weekend.

However it looks like the mfg settled.

Last edited by rydabent; 08-28-20 at 09:38 PM.
rydabent is offline  
Likes For rydabent:
Old 08-29-20, 10:33 AM
  #147  
Juan Foote
LBKA (formerly punkncat)
 
Juan Foote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Jawja
Posts: 3,981

Bikes: Spec Roubaix SL4, GT Traffic 1.0

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1587 Post(s)
Liked 489 Times in 347 Posts
Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
That crease in the downtube makes me wonder if someone didn't run headfirst into a curb, but how clean those welds came apart makes me question the integrity of the bike's construction.

This was my thought.

The lawyer claims there are eye witnesses to the crash and that he was just "riding along". Supposedly is on video.

Just thinking out loud and based on the crease alone in that I don't see a lot of scraping along the tube end. It would seem like he may have hit a curb or something elsewhere and was riding along here when it finally let go. One would think that if this is on video there would be a notable difference in the front wheel angle or wheelbase.
Juan Foote is offline  
Old 09-04-20, 07:57 PM
  #148  
enine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 601
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Looking at the pictures and remembering back to when I was welding, thin and heat treated steel you have to be careful when you weld to not get the surrounding area too hot. Welding by hand you would tack weld say every inch then come back and weld one inch section on one side then move to the to another area and weld a section, moving around so as not to get one area too hot. Welding too much at once can weaken the metal around the weld and make it break right next to the weld like that. so its plausible from the pictures there could be a welding problem.
enine is offline  
Old 09-05-20, 08:13 AM
  #149  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 22,530
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 2,090 Times in 1,489 Posts
Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
Quite a bit more complicated than that but yes, that was one contributor.

Read the history of the De Havilland Comet airliner some time. Shows it takes some time to get the technology right.
Not really that much more complicated. The solution was to not cause cracks, i.e. make rounded corners. They have a lot of problems with stress corrosion cracking, but that requires cracks. De Havilland didn't understand the fatigue cycles that an airplane undergoes. They also didn't understand fatigue that well. And they had large cracks from square windows that they didn't expect so they weren't looking for them. I'm sure they had other design details that were very poor from a fatigue resistance perspective because they really didn't know any better. They are one of the big reasons we know this stuff, nobody had done it before. It's still not hard to find engineers that don't fully understand how fatigue failures happen.

There are two things about fatigue failures that make them seem mysterious. The first is that fatigue cracking can occur at stresses below the yield strength of the material. The second is that in ductile materials, it's possible to have long cracks without noticing them. Then a large load comes along and causes instant failure (rupture). Can't really blame a cyclist for not noticing a long crack. I fixed a frame that had a crack all the way around the head lug on the head tube. There was about 1/8" of uncracked material. That was a very long crack. You could only see it on the inside of the head tube. Can't expect anyone to look in there on a regular basis.

I probably said this before, but the bucking of the downtube is consistent with happening during a rupture under load. In fact, I would say it's obvious that it happened when most of tube was not attached because of the deflection. The buckling that happens from a front impact is almost always further back, because the moment is higher there.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 09-06-20, 01:16 PM
  #150  
Pop N Wood
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,163

Bikes: 1982 Bianchi Sport SX, Rayleigh Tamland 1, Rans V-Rex recumbent, Fuji MTB, 80's Cannondale MTB with BBSHD ebike motor

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 552 Post(s)
Liked 434 Times in 287 Posts
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
Not really that much more complicated. .
I spent several years operating a nuclear reactor. Not a square corner on the reactor vessel anywhere, yet we had strict procedures regulating what temperature the reactor had to be before we could subject it to full system pressure. The restrictions were updated with the power history because naturally the neutron flux affected the nil ductility temperature of the steel.

Lots of factors at play. Getting back to ships the USS Schenectady is an interesting example.

https://www.designnews.com/materials...ittle-fracture
Pop N Wood is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.