Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

How you ride a bike

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

How you ride a bike

Old 12-03-21, 11:59 PM
  #51  
Ironfish653
Dirty Heathen
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: MC-778, 6250 fsw
Posts: 1,711

Bikes: 1997 Cannondale, 1976 Bridgestone, 1998 Softride

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 652 Post(s)
Liked 484 Times in 299 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Yes, and bicycles are a whole other animal than dirt bikes. What's the point of using a street bike as an example for what can or can't be done on a bicycle, when it doesn't even apply to dirt bikes?
I didn't bring up dirtbikes, you did, but riding a dirtbike at moderate speed on pavement (20-50mph) is exactly like riding a streetbike at the same speed on pavement; riding aggressively off-road demands a different technique than street or circuit riding.

My original post was that for any two-wheel, single-track vehicle, two things have to happen to enter and negotiate a turn: You have to change the angle of the front wheel relative to the back wheel and move the CG of the bike/rider system far enough to the inside to prevent the bike from falling to the outside of the turn. Both of these things have to be done.
Once you're in the turn, you have to find that balance between keeping your CG far enough to the inside to not to 'stand up' and go over on the outside, or not so far as to slide out your tires, or following your front wheel into the ground. On a bicycle, you are able to shift your own weight enough to maintain this balance without any significant input on the bars. Get good enough at managing this and you can ride with no hands.
On a moto, the weight of the bike is more significant, as well as the effect of the rear wheel pushing against the turned front wheel. Finding the 'traction budget' for a motocycle executing a turn is 3-D calculus-based physics, but the breakdown is that rider weight shift alone isn't enough to make all those little corrections, and you have to apply deliberate input to the handlebars to make that happen.
Ironfish653 is offline  
Old 12-04-21, 02:48 AM
  #52  
livedarklions
High Performance Noodler
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 12,441

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6485 Post(s)
Liked 6,185 Times in 3,491 Posts
Originally Posted by Ironfish653 View Post
Nope. He's doing it with his hips, more or less.
The biggest difference between moto and velo, as I've said, is that center of mass, and the rider's proportion of that mass is very different. On velo, the riders' mass is several times that of the bike, and you're able to affect more control over the bike using weight shifts and counter-shifts to control both the lean of the bike, and the CG of the whole system (bike+rider) without a whole lot of extra movement.
I'm not saying everybody can ride any bicycle with no hands, but it's not an uncommon thing.
It is really, really difficult to make a 500# moto change direction quickly and predictably without input to the bars. It's too heavy, and the CG is too low for just the rider shifting their weight to have the effect it does on a bicycle.
You said that there had to be slight imperceptible inputs into the handlebars on a velo.
I have no idea why you brought up moto in the first place. He's not putting inputs into the handlebars with his hips. We know there's got to be a countershift of the center of gravity on the velo, my point originally was that we can't tell from the video whether the twitch of the handlebars is initiating that shift or simply the bike "tilting" away from the centered handlebars while the countershift is done with the body.

My suspicion is we way underestimate the role of shifting our shoulders in a turn, btw.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 12-04-21, 09:28 AM
  #53  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,982

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1860 Post(s)
Liked 2,961 Times in 1,226 Posts
Originally Posted by Ironfish653 View Post
I didn't bring up dirtbikes, you did ...
You provided a link (and a summary) to an article about street motorcycles that also mentioned dirt bikes. What point were you trying to make with that post?
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 12-04-21, 10:00 AM
  #54  
OldTryGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SW Fl.
Posts: 5,344

Bikes: Day6 Semi Recumbent "FIREBALL", 1981 Custom Touring Paramount, 1983 Road Paramount, 2013 Giant Propel Advanced SL3, 2018 Specialized Red Roubaix Expert mech., 2002 Magna 7sp hybrid, 1976 Bassett Racing 45sp Cruiser

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 964 Post(s)
Liked 581 Times in 378 Posts
Originally Posted by Chuck M View Post
I used to do it quite a bit as a kid. I bought a new Trek a few years ago and could not ride it without hands. I assumed it was the bikes geometry but I now have to bikes that are the same frames as what I had in high school. I think I could ride them without hands, but I don't feel comfortable. I think at 57 I have lost the confidence that lets me ride without hands so I think that is a sign to me to not try it any longer.
I went out at 2:14am today for a very cold 40 miler wearing riding gloves under full fingered warming gloves with the latter requiring removal a number of times. Sitting up and leaning back as in the video unloads the front wheel making balancing easier. At 71 riding no hands is not something I frequently do but it certainly helps out on some occasions One need not be a *no hand expert* but being able to ride without hands can be helpful at times.
OldTryGuy is offline  
Old 12-04-21, 08:21 PM
  #55  
Ironfish653
Dirty Heathen
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: MC-778, 6250 fsw
Posts: 1,711

Bikes: 1997 Cannondale, 1976 Bridgestone, 1998 Softride

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 652 Post(s)
Liked 484 Times in 299 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Yes, and bicycles are a whole other animal than dirt bikes. What's the point of using a street bike as an example for what can or can't be done on a bicycle, when it doesn't even apply to dirt bikes?
The "No BS Bike" shows that without an input of some kind to the front wheel, just leaning or shifting your weight doesn't make a bike turn in and corner in a predictable manner. What the wheels need to do to make a turn on flat, level pavement doesn't change.

WHat changes is how you can get there;. On a bicycle, as livedarklions alluded to, the rider's weight shifts and counter-shifts, due to the geometry and weight distribution, can move the head tube of the bicycle sufficiently to pull the fork out of line (and move it back) to negotiate the turn.
With a moto, the weight, and it's distribution mean that just shifting your weight around in the saddle isn't enough to make the front wheel turn on it's own, you have to move the bars, too.
​​​​​​
The thing with dirt bikes, is that you can make it turn (on dirt) by leaning the bike over, and the using the throttle to make the rear wheel break traction and slide to the outside to "oversteer" around the corner. You can't do it on a bicycle, because you don't make enough power, and on a street motorcycle, it means you've exceeded the traction available for otherwise keeping the bike upright

Last edited by Ironfish653; 12-04-21 at 08:31 PM.
Ironfish653 is offline  
Old 12-04-21, 08:41 PM
  #56  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,982

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1860 Post(s)
Liked 2,961 Times in 1,226 Posts
Originally Posted by Ironfish653 View Post
The thing with dirt bikes, is that you can make it turn (on dirt) by leaning the bike over, and the using the throttle to make the rear wheel break traction and slide to the outside to "oversteer" around the corner. You can't do it on a bicycle, because you don't make enough power, and on a street motorcycle, it means you've exceeded the traction available for otherwise keeping the bike upright
I don't know why you keep going back to what can and cannot be done on motorcycles -- it doesn't directly apply to bicycles.
tomato coupe is offline  
Likes For tomato coupe:
Old 12-04-21, 08:56 PM
  #57  
Siu Blue Wind
Homey
 
Siu Blue Wind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,405
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2270 Post(s)
Liked 1,030 Times in 663 Posts
Yes, this is a human powered cycling forum. Let's talk about that please.
__________________
Originally Posted by making View Post
Please dont outsmart the censor. That is a very expensive censor and every time one of you guys outsmart it it makes someone at the home office feel bad. We dont wanna do that. So dont cleverly disguise bad words.
Siu Blue Wind is offline  
Old 12-05-21, 01:05 PM
  #58  
Ironfish653
Dirty Heathen
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: MC-778, 6250 fsw
Posts: 1,711

Bikes: 1997 Cannondale, 1976 Bridgestone, 1998 Softride

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 652 Post(s)
Liked 484 Times in 299 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
I don't know why you keep going back to what can and cannot be done on motorcycles -- it doesn't directly apply to bicycles.
Because what the wheels have to do is the same on any two-wheeled, single-track vehicle In order to enter and negotiate a corner, is the same regardless of what kind of bike it is.

What changes is the control inputs required to make the wheels do what they need to to change from going straight, to making a turn.
On a bicycle, you can, while riding no-hands, you can, using shift of rider's 'weight' move the frame of the bike enough to make the fork rotate, changing the angle of the front wheel, as necessary to 'steer' and bring it back to stable.
Just because you're not touching the handlebar doesn't mean it isn't moving.

The reason I brought up motorcycles, all those posts ago, is that the wheels have to do the same things, describe the same paths, to negotiate a corner; but because of the increased weight, you have to use the bars to affect those changes to the front wheel. And because you have to put that distinct effort into the controls, it's much easier to observe what the front wheel is doing.
Ironfish653 is offline  
Old 12-05-21, 03:26 PM
  #59  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,982

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1860 Post(s)
Liked 2,961 Times in 1,226 Posts
Originally Posted by Ironfish653 View Post
The reason I brought up motorcycles, all those posts ago, is that the wheels have to do the same things, describe the same paths, to negotiate a corner; but because of the increased weight, you have to use the bars to affect those changes to the front wheel.
No, you don't:

tomato coupe is offline  
Old 12-05-21, 06:10 PM
  #60  
Lastmohecken
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Posts: 35

Bikes: CB4 COGBURN FAT TIRE MOUNTAIN BIKE, with severe modifications

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 5 Posts
It's truly amazing what some people can do on a bike or motorcycle. However, it may be a slightly different story for the average bloke. I am not a good bicyclist and I struggle at times with control. However, I am a pretty good motorcyclist, and I have been riding Harleys for 20 years. I rode trail bikes as a teenage but didn't ride for a long time after that, so when I decided I wanted to get a Harley at 40 plus years old, I took a motorcycle safety course and it has saved my live on several occasions. Counterstearing and knowing you are doing it on purpose, not just some subconscious movement can save your life on a motorcycle. Over the years, I have had a lot of friends, etc. that have been killed on motorcycles for various reasons, and in some incidents, I can't help but wonder if they really understood countersteering.

It's works on a bicycle too, but I guess I rode a bicycle all the time as a kid and never even heard of countersteering.
Lastmohecken is offline  
Old 12-06-21, 09:47 AM
  #61  
livedarklions
High Performance Noodler
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 12,441

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6485 Post(s)
Liked 6,185 Times in 3,491 Posts
Originally Posted by Ironfish653 View Post
On a bicycle, you can, while riding no-hands, you can, using shift of rider's 'weight' move the frame of the bike enough to make the fork rotate, changing the angle of the front wheel, as necessary to 'steer' and bring it back to stable.
Just because you're not touching the handlebar doesn't mean it isn't moving.
.
Nobody is disputing that the handlebars on a bicycle move and that weight needs to countershift in a turn. The OP video presents this as proving that you need to counterturn with your hands to initiate the turn, and I think the no-hands video shows that they've misidentified the way in which the handlebars may work. Obviously, the locking of the handlebars to prevent their adjustment makes the turn seemingly impossible, but I suspect that given enough time and practice, performing a successful turn with that one-way lockout might be doable by someone. The slackline video is a great example of someone learning a feat of balance that was seemingly impossible--I'm sure I'm not capable of the contortions he needs to perform to keep his balance on that bike.

You said the input had to be through the handlebar. Shifting your weight on the bike is not providing an input into the handlebar when you're not touching the handlebar no matter how hard you try to contort your words. Just admit you got it a bit wrong and move on.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 12-06-21, 05:45 PM
  #62  
Doug64
Senior Member
 
Doug64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 6,305
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1089 Post(s)
Liked 635 Times in 339 Posts
This is a good video that show that we do counter steer to initiate a turn (from the Cycle Oregon Newsletter):
Doug64 is offline  
Old 12-06-21, 06:01 PM
  #63  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,982

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1860 Post(s)
Liked 2,961 Times in 1,226 Posts
Originally Posted by Doug64 View Post
This is a good video that show that we do counter steer to initiate a turn (from the Cycle Oregon Newsletter):
You didn't actually read this thread, did you?
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 12-06-21, 06:32 PM
  #64  
majmt
Senior Member
 
majmt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tropical Montana
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked 730 Times in 230 Posts
Originally Posted by Doug64 View Post
This is a good video that show that we do counter steer to initiate a turn (from the Cycle Oregon Newsletter):
Most People Don't Know How Bikes Work

Here’s a link to an interesting discussion of this subject:

https://www.bikeforums.net/general-cycling-discussion/1243011-how-you-ride-bike.html


majmt is offline  
Old 12-06-21, 06:34 PM
  #65  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,982

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1860 Post(s)
Liked 2,961 Times in 1,226 Posts
Originally Posted by majmt View Post

Heres a link to an interesting discussion of this subject:

https://www.bikeforums.net/general-cycling-discussion/1243011-how-you-ride-bike.html


You just put us in an infinite loop. It's just a matter of time before the server crashes.
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 12-06-21, 11:09 PM
  #66  
Doug64
Senior Member
 
Doug64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 6,305
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1089 Post(s)
Liked 635 Times in 339 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
You didn't actually read this thread, did you?
Sorry guts. I actually read the thread over a couple of days, but somehow I missed opening the OP's video.
Doug64 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.