Ironfish653

I didn't bring up dirtbikes, you did, but riding a dirtbike at moderate speed on pavement (20-50mph) is exactly like riding a streetbike at the same speed on pavement; riding aggressively off-road demands a different technique than street or circuit riding.

My original post was that for any two-wheel, single-track vehicle, two things have to happen to enter and negotiate a turn: You have to change the angle of the front wheel relative to the back wheel and move the CG of the bike/rider system far enough to the inside to prevent the bike from falling to the outside of the turn. Both of these things have to be done.
Once you're in the turn, you have to find that balance between keeping your CG far enough to the inside to not to 'stand up' and go over on the outside, or not so far as to slide out your tires, or following your front wheel into the ground. On a bicycle, you are able to shift your own weight enough to maintain this balance without any significant input on the bars. Get good enough at managing this and you can ride with no hands.
On a moto, the weight of the bike is more significant, as well as the effect of the rear wheel pushing against the turned front wheel. Finding the 'traction budget' for a motocycle executing a turn is 3-D calculus-based physics, but the breakdown is that rider weight shift alone isn't enough to make all those little corrections, and you have to apply deliberate input to the handlebars to make that happen.

livedarklions

You said that there had to be slight imperceptible inputs into the handlebars on a velo.
I have no idea why you brought up moto in the first place. He's not putting inputs into the handlebars with his hips. We know there's got to be a countershift of the center of gravity on the velo, my point originally was that we can't tell from the video whether the twitch of the handlebars is initiating that shift or simply the bike "tilting" away from the centered handlebars while the countershift is done with the body.

My suspicion is we way underestimate the role of shifting our shoulders in a turn, btw.

tomato coupe

You provided a link (and a summary) to an article about street motorcycles that also mentioned dirt bikes. What point were you trying to make with that post?

OldTryGuy

I went out at 2:14am today for a very cold 40 miler wearing riding gloves under full fingered warming gloves with the latter requiring removal a number of times. Sitting up and leaning back as in the video unloads the front wheel making balancing easier. At 71 riding no hands is not something I frequently do but it certainly helps out on some occasions One need not be a *no hand expert* but being able to ride without hands can be helpful at times.

Ironfish653

The "No BS Bike" shows that without an input of some kind to the front wheel, just leaning or shifting your weight doesn't make a bike turn in and corner in a predictable manner. What the wheels need to do to make a turn on flat, level pavement doesn't change.

WHat changes is how you can get there;. On a bicycle, as livedarklions alluded to, the rider's weight shifts and counter-shifts, due to the geometry and weight distribution, can move the head tube of the bicycle sufficiently to pull the fork out of line (and move it back) to negotiate the turn.
With a moto, the weight, and it's distribution mean that just shifting your weight around in the saddle isn't enough to make the front wheel turn on it's own, you have to move the bars, too.
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The thing with dirt bikes, is that you can make it turn (on dirt) by leaning the bike over, and the using the throttle to make the rear wheel break traction and slide to the outside to "oversteer" around the corner. You can't do it on a bicycle, because you don't make enough power, and on a street motorcycle, it means you've exceeded the traction available for otherwise keeping the bike upright

tomato coupe

I don't know why you keep going back to what can and cannot be done on motorcycles -- it doesn't directly apply to bicycles.

Siu Blue Wind

Yes, this is a human powered cycling forum. Let's talk about that please.

Ironfish653

Because what the wheels have to do is the same on any two-wheeled, single-track vehicle In order to enter and negotiate a corner, is the same regardless of what kind of bike it is.

What changes is the control inputs required to make the wheels do what they need to to change from going straight, to making a turn.
On a bicycle, you can, while riding no-hands, you can, using shift of rider's 'weight' move the frame of the bike enough to make the fork rotate, changing the angle of the front wheel, as necessary to 'steer' and bring it back to stable.
Just because you're not touching the handlebar doesn't mean it isn't moving.

The reason I brought up motorcycles, all those posts ago, is that the wheels have to do the same things, describe the same paths, to negotiate a corner; but because of the increased weight, you have to use the bars to affect those changes to the front wheel. And because you have to put that distinct effort into the controls, it's much easier to observe what the front wheel is doing.

tomato coupe

No, you don't:

Lastmohecken

It's truly amazing what some people can do on a bike or motorcycle. However, it may be a slightly different story for the average bloke. I am not a good bicyclist and I struggle at times with control. However, I am a pretty good motorcyclist, and I have been riding Harleys for 20 years. I rode trail bikes as a teenage but didn't ride for a long time after that, so when I decided I wanted to get a Harley at 40 plus years old, I took a motorcycle safety course and it has saved my live on several occasions. Counterstearing and knowing you are doing it on purpose, not just some subconscious movement can save your life on a motorcycle. Over the years, I have had a lot of friends, etc. that have been killed on motorcycles for various reasons, and in some incidents, I can't help but wonder if they really understood countersteering.

It's works on a bicycle too, but I guess I rode a bicycle all the time as a kid and never even heard of countersteering.

livedarklions

Nobody is disputing that the handlebars on a bicycle move and that weight needs to countershift in a turn. The OP video presents this as proving that you need to counterturn with your hands to initiate the turn, and I think the no-hands video shows that they've misidentified the way in which the handlebars may work. Obviously, the locking of the handlebars to prevent their adjustment makes the turn seemingly impossible, but I suspect that given enough time and practice, performing a successful turn with that one-way lockout might be doable by someone. The slackline video is a great example of someone learning a feat of balance that was seemingly impossible--I'm sure I'm not capable of the contortions he needs to perform to keep his balance on that bike.

You said the input had to be through the handlebar. Shifting your weight on the bike is not providing an input into the handlebar when you're not touching the handlebar no matter how hard you try to contort your words. Just admit you got it a bit wrong and move on.

Doug64

This is a good video that show that we do counter steer to initiate a turn (from the Cycle Oregon Newsletter):

tomato coupe

You didn't actually read this thread, did you?

majmt 

Here’s a link to an interesting discussion of this subject:

https://www.bikeforums.net/general-cycling-discussion/1243011-how-you-ride-bike.html

tomato coupe

You just put us in an infinite loop. It's just a matter of time before the server crashes.

Doug64

Sorry guts. I actually read the thread over a couple of days, but somehow I missed opening the OP's video.